| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
akamaisondufromage 
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: May 16 2009
Location: Blighty
Status: Offline
Points: 6797
|
 Posted: December 19 2012 at 16:11 |
 Epignosis wrote:
akamaisondufromage wrote:
akamaisondufromage wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
akamaisondufromage wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
A question not often raised outside criminological circles is this: "How much crime (murders, burglaries, rapes, etc.) is prevented by responsible gun owners?"
Tough Targets, is an interesting and enlightening read thus far on defensive gun use. It offers a critical look at previous studies on the subject and the available data set. It compares and contrasts two universities in the same state, one that allowed concealed carry and one that prohibited firearms, and reported on their on-campus crime rates. In the appendix, it recounts numerous self-defense stories.
The question above is a question anyone serious about the gun debate in America should answer before pronouncing a broad judgment against firearms themselves. The report can be found here:
Tough Targets
By the way, there is a school district in Texas that has permitted faculty to carry weapons for going on five years.
|
Couple of questions Epi. If Teachers are armed will you force them to be armed? If someone refuses to carry a gun will they be unable to be a teacher? When they get a little old and their arm gets shakey? Will it be the teacher who gets the blame if they don't react as expected when confronted by a lunatic?
Also, you make yourself very clear about banning guns but what about only banning certain types of guns of the type being discussed.? I can't see the day when the states bans guns anyway. And I understand your argument. |
I would not want to see a teacher required to carry a weapon, no. I'm not even in favor of saying "All districts must have armed teachers." I think that should be up to the districts themselves.
But if we entrust adults with our children, we should theoretically be able to entrust them with anything, including a gun, don't you think? The attitude that a "gun free zone" is best and the idea of armed teachers is "extreme" or a terrible proposition on its face is unreasonable.
As for specific guns, I don't think banning things keeps us any safer. People who really want something will find a way to get it. People who want to kill will try to kill.
|
I don't think it follows that if we trust a teacher with the education and care of our children that we would trust them to carry a gun around them and act as security. I'm really not sure the type of person that makes a good teacher of five year olds would also be the same person that would be able to shoot someone dead while that person is aiming a gun at them and the class. Especially as I am sure that they would be worried that they kill the very people they are asked to protect. How can you change from playing games with children to being able to kill in a second. I could also envisage a teacher losing it in the classroom and shooting the children after a hard day!
With the majority of the recent mass killings the arms have been obtained legally. With the most recent he got them from his mother. I don't think that with these types of senseless killings that the perpetrator would go out of his way into the criminal world to obtain this type of gun. Of course this is not always the case but why would you want to keep them legal? Why make it easy fo someone with mental issues to do this?
Why would anyone want them? I can only think that they want them for gangland murder or with this idea that American society is so fragile that they need them to protect themselves when it (society) breaks down. They surely can't be kept under the pillow in case of a burglar?
Your link doesn't work. |
Oh well Just realised new thread so I moved it! |
Guns should remain legally available so people can protect themselves from violence. I explained that in my first post in this quote pyramid. The assumption tossed around is that violent crime will decrease when guns are banned, but data from DC, Chicago, the universities in Colorado, and elsewhere in America tends to show that that assumption is greatly flawed.
And if your motivation for banning guns isn't lowering violent crime and saving innocent lives, then what is it?
Here is a link to Tough Targets.
|
My questions all refer to the specific type of Semi-automatic guns this latest killer used. As I said I quite understand the argument for guns for self defense. I don't think guns will ever be banned in the USA and neither would I argue for it (none of my business in the end). My question was why make it easy for automatic assault type rifles to get into the hands of people with mental issues?
What is the harm in banning them or at least requiring them to be held at gun clubs?
|
|
Help me I'm falling!
|
 |
Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
|
Posted: December 19 2012 at 16:21 |
Guldbamsen wrote:
How are guns ever going to get banned in a country like USA? I think never. The land was taken from its inhabitants by way of the gun, and it has a legal foundation found at its core - pedestalling arms as a way of protecting oneself and family from harm.
I don't think any of us Europeans have anything interesting to add to this debate, mostly because we, at least myself that is, feel somewhat sickened just by seeing policemen bearing arms. I do. Frankly speaking, it's like when we try to immerse ourselves in the "peace talks" of the Middle east with all of our well meaning ideas and whatnot - not realising that we don't know the first thing about the quarrel. We haven't had our children killed in bombings and lost two thirds of the family to madmen with a different viewpoint to our own. Gross generalisation yes, but let me be the first to say that while I think the gun laws in the States are ridiculous, I also have no idea of just how it feels having been brought up in a country, where the wild west once was and reigned. |
What land was taken from its inhabitants by use of force?
|
|
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
|
|
Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
|
Posted: December 19 2012 at 16:23 |
|
The native American's.
|
|
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
|
|
Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
|
Posted: December 19 2012 at 16:38 |
Guldbamsen wrote:
How are guns ever going to get banned in a country like USA? I think never. The land was taken from its inhabitants by way of the gun, and it has a legal foundation found at its core - pedestalling arms as a way of protecting oneself and family from harm.
I don't think any of us Europeans have anything interesting to add to this debate, mostly because we, at least myself that is, feel somewhat sickened just by seeing policemen bearing arms. I do. Frankly speaking, it's like when we try to immerse ourselves in the "peace talks" of the Middle east with all of our well meaning ideas and whatnot - not realising that we don't know the first thing about the quarrel. We haven't had our children killed in bombings and lost two thirds of the family to madmen with a different viewpoint to our own. Gross generalisation yes, but let me be the first to say that while I think the gun laws in the States are ridiculous, I also have no idea of just how it feels having been brought up in a country, where the wild west once was and reigned. |
I really appreciate this post.
It reflects why I don't insist that people in the UK and other European places should have guns. If your people are safe and happy, then let them be satisfied with their respective nations' domestic policies.
One thing though: It's a common misconception that the Old West was "wild." On the contrary, it was relatively peaceful.
|
|
|
|
Icarium
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
Status: Offline
Points: 34083
|
Posted: December 19 2012 at 16:42 |
as a country who is not a EU member who is downgrading its military, and its wellfare creates such high prices its will create a massive degree of desperation and mental issues i feel guns in Norway to every sitizan is a bad idea
considering Norwegians drinking habbits and fighting spirrit give thouse folks guns is like giving light sabers to children
Edited by aginor - December 19 2012 at 16:49
|
|
|
|
Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
|
Posted: December 19 2012 at 16:43 |
|
Thanks for the link Rob. Just goes to show that far too much of what we know stems from old movies and sources we for some reason never seem to question.
|
|
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
|
|
timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
|
Posted: December 19 2012 at 16:47 |
|
^ So say some libertarian authors who were not alive for the history they portray.
|
|
Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
|
Posted: December 19 2012 at 16:50 |
This is an interesting turn of events:
Edited by Alitare - December 19 2012 at 16:51
|
|
Icarium
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
Status: Offline
Points: 34083
|
Posted: December 19 2012 at 16:50 |
|
|
|
|
|
Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
|
Posted: December 19 2012 at 16:51 |
Well I for one have parted ways with politics a little while back after reading Giorgio Agamben, so I wouldn't know too much about that(no more than what I occasionally stumble across on here). Politics are evil imo. They focus on fear and terror in order to help their own agendas.
Edit: Responding Monsieur Leary.
Edited by Guldbamsen - December 19 2012 at 16:52
|
|
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
|
|
The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
|
Posted: December 19 2012 at 16:52 |
|
It is usually not that great when people with absolutely no real knowledge and experience of a particular universe try to regulate or make it better with solutions that they come up with in their offices and social laboratories and not extracted from experience and common sense (real common sense, as in, commoner sense).
Wait, elites deciding from up high... That has a name.
|
|
|
|
Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
|
Posted: December 19 2012 at 16:53 |
aginor wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
Thanks for the link Rob. Just goes to show that far too much of what we know stems from old movies and sources we for some reason never seem to question. |
Like Anders And    |
Yup  Though a lot of what I've learned over time has had it's roots in Donald Duck, albeit with a slightly ulterior cast...
|
|
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
|
|
Icarium
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
Status: Offline
Points: 34083
|
Posted: December 19 2012 at 16:54 |
^ Oligarchy?? Aristocreasy ?? 
|
|
|
|
The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
|
Posted: December 19 2012 at 16:54 |
timothy leary wrote:
^ So say some libertarian authors who were not alive for the history they portray. |
Neither were any of today's authors really. Or historians in general, with some exceptions.
|
|
|
|
Icarium
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
Status: Offline
Points: 34083
|
Posted: December 19 2012 at 16:55 |
Carl Barks and Don Rosa are true men of wisdom and vission 
Edited by aginor - December 19 2012 at 16:56
|
|
|
|
Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
|
Posted: December 19 2012 at 17:01 |
akamaisondufromage wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
akamaisondufromage wrote:
akamaisondufromage wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
akamaisondufromage wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
A question not often raised outside criminological circles is this: "How much crime (murders, burglaries, rapes, etc.) is prevented by responsible gun owners?"
Tough Targets, is an interesting and enlightening read thus far on defensive gun use. It offers a critical look at previous studies on the subject and the available data set. It compares and contrasts two universities in the same state, one that allowed concealed carry and one that prohibited firearms, and reported on their on-campus crime rates. In the appendix, it recounts numerous self-defense stories.
The question above is a question anyone serious about the gun debate in America should answer before pronouncing a broad judgment against firearms themselves. The report can be found here:
Tough Targets
By the way, there is a school district in Texas that has permitted faculty to carry weapons for going on five years.
|
Couple of questions Epi. If Teachers are armed will you force them to be armed? If someone refuses to carry a gun will they be unable to be a teacher? When they get a little old and their arm gets shakey? Will it be the teacher who gets the blame if they don't react as expected when confronted by a lunatic?
Also, you make yourself very clear about banning guns but what about only banning certain types of guns of the type being discussed.? I can't see the day when the states bans guns anyway. And I understand your argument. |
I would not want to see a teacher required to carry a weapon, no. I'm not even in favor of saying "All districts must have armed teachers." I think that should be up to the districts themselves.
But if we entrust adults with our children, we should theoretically be able to entrust them with anything, including a gun, don't you think? The attitude that a "gun free zone" is best and the idea of armed teachers is "extreme" or a terrible proposition on its face is unreasonable.
As for specific guns, I don't think banning things keeps us any safer. People who really want something will find a way to get it. People who want to kill will try to kill.
|
I don't think it follows that if we trust a teacher with the education and care of our children that we would trust them to carry a gun around them and act as security. I'm really not sure the type of person that makes a good teacher of five year olds would also be the same person that would be able to shoot someone dead while that person is aiming a gun at them and the class. Especially as I am sure that they would be worried that they kill the very people they are asked to protect. How can you change from playing games with children to being able to kill in a second. I could also envisage a teacher losing it in the classroom and shooting the children after a hard day!
With the majority of the recent mass killings the arms have been obtained legally. With the most recent he got them from his mother. I don't think that with these types of senseless killings that the perpetrator would go out of his way into the criminal world to obtain this type of gun. Of course this is not always the case but why would you want to keep them legal? Why make it easy fo someone with mental issues to do this?
Why would anyone want them? I can only think that they want them for gangland murder or with this idea that American society is so fragile that they need them to protect themselves when it (society) breaks down. They surely can't be kept under the pillow in case of a burglar?
Your link doesn't work. |
Oh well Just realised new thread so I moved it! |
Guns should remain legally available so people can protect themselves from violence. I explained that in my first post in this quote pyramid. The assumption tossed around is that violent crime will decrease when guns are banned, but data from DC, Chicago, the universities in Colorado, and elsewhere in America tends to show that that assumption is greatly flawed.
And if your motivation for banning guns isn't lowering violent crime and saving innocent lives, then what is it?
Here is a link to Tough Targets.
|
My questions all refer to the specific type of Semi-automatic guns this latest killer used. As I said I quite understand the argument for guns for self defense. I don't think guns will ever be banned in the USA and neither would I argue for it (none of my business in the end). My question was why make it easy for automatic assault type rifles to get into the hands of people with mental issues?
What is the harm in banning them or at least requiring them to be held at gun clubs? |
Automatic "assault-type" rifles aren't easy to get (can you name an automatic "non-assault type" rifle by the way?). For instance, one may only possess one legally if it was registered before May 19, 1986. That means they are not manufactured for civilian use anymore. That's just one of the hurdles, and I haven't even touched the AFT regulations and local bureaucracy.
Automatic weapons already strictly regulated. 
|
|
|
|
The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
|
Posted: December 19 2012 at 17:03 |
|
The way it is portrayed, I could go tomorrow to any walmart and buy me a good M-16. In reality, for those who have more knowledge, is it that easy?
|
|
|
|
timothy leary
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 29 2005
Location: Lilliwaup, Wa.
Status: Offline
Points: 5319
|
Posted: December 19 2012 at 17:04 |
The T wrote:
timothy leary wrote:
^ So say some libertarian authors who were not alive for the history they portray. |
Neither were any of today's authors really. Or historians in general, with some exceptions. |
If you want to know what a gold rush town was like then read some Mark Twain who actually was there firsthand.
|
|
The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
|
Posted: December 19 2012 at 17:08 |
|
^As I said, with exceptions.
|
|
|
|
Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104
|
Posted: December 19 2012 at 17:09 |
timothy leary wrote:
The T wrote:
timothy leary wrote:
^ So say some libertarian authors who were not alive for the history they portray. |
Neither were any of today's authors really. Or historians in general, with some exceptions. |
If you want to know what a gold rush town was like then read some Mark Twain who actually was there firsthand. |
Seems pretty obvious to me. Just like I'd rather talk to an actual boxer to learn how the ring feels instead of starting up a pen-pal friendship with a guy who once washed Mike Tyson's jog strap.
|
|
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
|
|
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Guns, mass shootings, and related.