"Freedom" thread or something

Since you can predict the future how about giving me a heads up on the lottery.

That's why I never play it, any other fortune telling secrets for me?

Finnforest wrote: It will Tim.....we are instead going to go your way.....and man are we gonna pay for it.  And I don't mean money.

Indeed.



It's been a slow process but it keeps rolling along.
I would say why can't lefties just be happy? We are continually heading towards what they want, but I think they see (but deny) that what they want is leading to crap. Maybe the collectivist mindset can't be happy?
Check out Shafarevich. More I think about the premise, I wonder if it's true. That collectivism is unconsciously just nihilism. He talks of socialism but recall collectivism can be left or right wing.
Ah I've been here too long, mind is frying.


Edited by JJLehto - December 15 2012 at 13:31

Yes that's cute and all but still doesn't change when we say something and you ignore it 100%, so we follow up and you repeat.
I'll be fair, you are responding now at least

Actually that is what I did. I did research and read and think, and I went to libertarianism. Guess I really f**ked up eh?
Besides, you seem to be arguing against anarchism, or near, and few people are that extreme. Most limited government folk still believe in some...government. It has to be collectivism or anarchy with you eh?

Even Hayek, an Austrian Economist (which I am not totally with btw) said there's a role for government, even a safety net! "In no system that could be rationally defended would the state just do nothing."
Oh and limited government and free markets aren't utopia. Just, in my book, the best possible solution.


Edited by JJLehto - December 15 2012 at 14:00

Well, I give you credit. Doc is vague with his "evil" you clearly think the Koch's are the face of evil.
I am pretty tired of being told to research, all I do is that, and read, and think and so many people say "lol Brian you're dumb do some research" I can't know the whole world of literature yet...gimme some time!

Anyway, you seem to put Koch as the founder of libertarianism. You've dropped the name 50 times, and keep talking about the "founder". The idea does go back a long way, like the work of JS Mill, or even Rousseau and Locke.
It's fine you think the Koch's have used libertarianism as a vehicle for them to sh*t on the Earth but please stop using that as the "foundation" the concepts have many many years and people behind it as well.

I'm with you. Nature and animals is where I'm closest to being a hippie, few things make me more emotional. I'm not religious, or really spiritual, but nature is the closest thing to "God" that there is for me.
I ask sincerely, since you want to debate, what would you like to see? I could agree, those that ruin it should be punished somehow.

I am not claiming The Kochs are the foundation of libertarianism. I say they have usurped libertarianism right now to use to there advantage right now. Right now at this exact moment they are polluting. There is not any time right now when they cease to pollute.They also profit from war. I am not accusing you of being sympathetic to them. They need to be accountable to the American people for the destruction of the environment. Unregulated corporations will do whatever they please.

Yeah, guess it is. I did transition though.
"Maybe the collectivist mindset can't be happy?"

I did indeed know he was, I learned the name from a Friedman video who introduced him as a "dissident and mathematician". When you say extending his work, you mean in terms of mathematics?


Yes, Tim I am certainly not sympathetic to them. Especially in regards to war. Always been non interventionist and a critic of US policy, and it's actually increased in recent time. What's ironic about that though is the Cato Institute, co founded by Koch, is anti war, as are most libertarians.
Anywho, how do you want to punish the corporations? Needless to say, they are not alone in the mess. Regular people bare some blame. We started having state hunts in Northern NJ because people keep moving into wooded areas and uh oh, bears have been living there.
Every year since I've been a child, have gone between my home and Harrisburg, PA and have noticed there's always another housing complex, more malls, more giant ass Cabelas, a new casino, more people. Slowly eating away the amazing beauty of the state. But what can ya do about that?

JJLehto wrote: When you say extending his work, you mean in terms of mathematics?

Yes - on the mathematical end. I have not read any of his political works, although I am aware of their existence.

Alitare wrote: I say I say I say ya load sixteen ton and whaddaya get? Another day older and deeper in debt. Saint Peter don't ya call me 'cause I can't go, I owe my soul to the company store!

Give the libertarians half a chance and the company store will make a glorious return. 

timothy leary wrote: Do you dispute Kock profits off of war? He may say he is anti-war but then why does he profit off of it?

Ah but that is why I said ironic!
HE may...but wasn't that the earlier point someone (llama I think made)? You can't judge a movement from one person. We are complex beings. How many smart people that have written great things been anti semitic, or hate Islam, or have terrible personal flaws.

The Cato institute has provided some of the best works supporting limited government I've seen. Koch may be a terrible human being, but I can't discredit a wave started from his splash for it. Besides it's not like he alone spurred the limited gov movement. There was Hayek and Friedman, Ron Paul who spent decades bashing both parties.



I'm re-reading one of his now Pat, "The Socialist Phenomenon" and it's certainly intriguing at least. I gather the theory is it ultimately boils down to individualism vs collectivism, and the later is subconsciously fueled by nihilism. Not that we know it, it's a psyche thing. Even says collectivism is akin to a death wish.
He works god into it and I don't like that , but the final point is powerful: It's down to choosing life or death.