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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 20:46
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

the social ethic behind libertarian values: every man for himself; selfishness is a virtue.




I encourage others to use this image.
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manofmystery View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 20:47
Imagine how much you'd have had that same amount not been taken forceably from every paycheck you earned over the last 40 years and instead you'd been able to put it into a simple savings account at even the least generous rate.
RV down south?  Dale from The Walking Dead?


Time always wins.
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thellama73 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 20:49
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

When Texas Governor Rick Perry, a front-runner in the Republican primary for president, derides Social Security as a “Ponzi scheme” or a “monstrous lie,” that rhetoric can be traced back to the work of Hayek and Koch. And yet we now know that in private practice, Hayek was perfectly content to pay into Social Security and that Koch encouraged him to draw upon both Social Security and Medicare. Did they really believe what they wrote? Or were these attacks just scare-talk meant for the rubes, for you and us, “the public”?

Calling this mere hypocrisy downplays the seriousness of their fraud. Koch and Hayek are no more hypocritical than the used-car salesman who knowingly sells a lemon to a gullible buyer, or the financial agency that rates “AAA” instruments it knows are crap. This is a grand swindle played on a trusting, gullible public, a scam whose goal is to con America’s dying middle class into handing over their retirement money to the richest 0.1 percent, convincing them that in doing so, they’re “empowering” themselves and protecting their “individual liberty.”

Another question hangs over all this: Why didn’t Charles Koch offer to put up some of his enormous wealth to pay for Hayek’s temporary medical insurance? One obvious answer: because the state had already offered a better and freer program. But perhaps Koch’s stinginess also reveals the social ethic behind libertarian values: every man for himself; selfishness is a virtue.



These are not arguments. You are not addressing the ideas behind libertarianism, but attacking the people who promote those ideas. It's like saying global warming doesn't exist because Al Gore eats meat and flies in a private jet. It's like saying the Constitution is garbage because Thomas Jefferson owned slaves. It's like saying Wagner's music isn't beautiful because he was a horrible man. These are not arguments, and while I could defend Koch and Hayek here because I like both of them, I won't do so because it would be admitting some validity in your premise, which I will not do.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 20:56
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

the social ethic behind libertarian values: every man for himself; selfishness is a virtue.




I encourage others to use this image.

I don't recall talking with you. I encourage you to keep working hard and someday you can enjoy your grandchildren and take life a little easier. All your words are not going to change the world.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 20:57


Time always wins.
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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 20:57
the only thing sadder than Slarti's weak ass troll attempts is that he always gets you guys!
And he put literally 0 effort in that last one, still you gave him the desired reaction LOL cmon man!

Hey now llama, don't get too ahead of yourself. I fully admit the many many discussions here made me ponder deply, and some great sources were given (kudos to Pat for telling me about Rothbard's "The Case Against the Fed") but it started with self exploration. It is the only way to change minds, they have to be willing. This is naturally a pretty huge road block.

And Timmy has no need to thank us. We paid little into his SS, the many people who worked during his 40 years did! As we know there's no "holding" or "funds" the SS taxes go directly to current benefactors. Sadly Timmy, part of the SS problem is just that, you can't know exactly how much of your money paid into it actually went to you.
I have zero ill will though, SS is there. You'd have to be nuts, or a true blue idealist, to not take it. I am glad you are lucky enough to have it my man.

40 years from now when I can retire (or will it be 70, 72 or 100 by then?) god know what my situation will be like. If SS even exists by then it'd be such a total messCry The 401k people on the website recommend 10%??? The 6% already take a bit out of my little pay, why can't I have the choice to opt out of SS?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 20:58
A few weeks later, the institute reported the good news: Professor Hayek had indeed opted into Social Security while he was teaching at Chicago and had paid into the program for ten years. He was eligible for benefits. On August 10, 1973, Koch wrote a letter appealing to Hayek to accept a shorter stay at the IHS, hard-selling Hayek on Social Security’s retirement benefits, which Koch encouraged Hayek to draw on even outside America. He also assured Hayek that Medicare, which had been created in 1965 by the Social Security amendments as part of Lyndon Johnson’s Great Society programs, would cover his medical needs.
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thellama73 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 21:00
^^When I said I got through to you, JJ, I didn't mean you were a full convert, just that you were decent enough to listen and think about what I had to say.

Our words won't change the world, Tim? Mere words have changed the world many, many times. Why shouldn't one of us change the world with ours?


Edited by thellama73 - December 14 2012 at 21:01
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 21:07
Maybe SS was a better program for most of your life but this just isn't the case now.
The rates of return have gotten worse with time and are pretty abysmal now. This is before the changes happen! The SS fund itself said in their last paper in 2033 it will no longer be sustainable. This is coming from the people running it!!

So to continue taxes must be raised, benefits cuts, the retirement age raised, some combo aka the rate of return will be even worse!

So again, your position is 100% logical but for me/my generation it's a pretty bum deal.
Oh and speaking of future generations...it's been decided by the courts that we don't own our SS benefits. We have no right to them, and the government can do as they please with it. I'd rather have a private account that I can control aaaaaand, whatever is left can be given to my children. A bit of a head start on their lives!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 21:08


Time always wins.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 21:16
I hear ya llama :) And your friendly, honest and informational attitude was a major help. Can't help change minds when you're combative and a jerk.

And hey, we're talking on an internet forumLOL I'd hope no one here thinks their words will change the world. Hell, even if you try to do so, get published, work into the public eye...you should never think you will change the world with words. You can only try and do the best you can.
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 21:17
I love Penn.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 21:18
Hypocrites!

CHARLES C. KOCH. President

August 10, 1973

Professor F. A. Hayek
Firmianstrasse 17 A
A-5020 Salzburg
Austria

Dear Professor Hayek:

In reference to our telephone conversation last week, I am sorry that your health is such that you do not feel able to come to the Institute for an extended period but we certainly are pleased that you may be able to join us for two or three weeks in connection with our proposed conference on Austrian Economics.

…Although you will be unable to be a the Institute for an extended period, you may be interested in the information that we uncovered on the insurance and other benefits that would be available to you in this country. Since you have paid into the United States Social Security Program for a full forty quarters, you are entitled to Social Security payments while living anywhere in the Free World. Also, at any time you are in the United States, you are automatically entitled to hospital coverage. In order to be eligible for medical coverage you must apply during the registration period which is anytime from January 1 to March 31. For your further information, I am enclosing a pamphlet on Social Security.

We are very hopeful that you will be able to join us at this conference as we feel it would be a tremendous boost, not only for the conference, but for the growing interest in Austrian economics in the United States…

Sincerely,

Charles Koch

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 21:21
We're hypocrites because of a letter someone wrote to someone else that we didn't endorse and can't find on the Net anywhere?

Found here:

http://exiledonline.com/exiled-exclusive-read-the-orignal-letter-charles-koch-sent-to-friedrich-von-hayek-telling-him-to-sign-up-for-social-security/


Edited by Epignosis - December 14 2012 at 21:22
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thellama73 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 21:23
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

Hypocrites!



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JJLehto View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 21:29
It may look bad, and sure...call it hypocritical but cmon, the money is there for you, it's in your interest to take advantage. Much to the chagrin of idealists...you can't live being an idealist. We live in real lifeLOL you have to be realistic.
Doesn't mean it takes away what you've said. I fault no no one for taking SS, I just want to be able to opt out.

That's all. I don't want Timmy's to end, nor anyone who's receiving. Just please can I choose to no longer participate?


Edited by JJLehto - December 14 2012 at 21:31
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timothy leary View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 21:38
I am attacking libertarianism. If it looks like a skunk, walks like a skunk and smells like a skunk that is what it is. I have no need to attack you only libertarianism.So post your little cartoons and then complain about slarti. I am posting words which i cannot actually vouch for but they seem to be true to me. You can decide what they mean to you. Next cartoon.
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timothy leary View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 21:40
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

We're hypocrites because of a letter someone wrote to someone else that we didn't endorse and can't find on the Net anywhere?

Found here:

http://exiledonline.com/exiled-exclusive-read-the-orignal-letter-charles-koch-sent-to-friedrich-von-hayek-telling-him-to-sign-up-for-social-security/
Did I call you a hypocrite? Show me where I did>
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thellama73 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 21:40
You are not attacking libertarianism. You haven't said a word about libertarianism. You are attacking Koch and Hayek for being hypocrites. I don't think they are, but that is irrelevant.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2012 at 21:43
Cartoons?  You mean the quotes?  Either you need to get some new glasses or the cartoonist who drew those has reached a level or realism that I never thought possible.


Time always wins.
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