the importance of analog sound in prog |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: December 09 2012 at 08:12 | ||
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Anaon
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 01 2005 Location: Kobaļa Status: Offline Points: 849 |
Posted: December 09 2012 at 08:09 | ||
I thought they recorded every tracks like that, so maybe it's just "Luminol" as they already played it live... ?
I think most of them were recorded live actually with added overdubs here and there. Or at least, the main instruments were recorded "on the fly", and they kept the best take even if it was not perfect. It's really a detail but for example, it's really rare to hear drum stick noises on recording today. It happens quite often on classic albums but they would never record the take again at that time if it was the good take and I love that! Anyway, it's just to say that in my opinion, analog sound is more about a natural sound played live by musicians in a room (together or not).
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: December 09 2012 at 07:42 | ||
That's a point I've been emphasising for some time, it's not the technology but how you use it that is important. All the old methods are still applicable and are still in use - these techniques are not being re-learnt or rediscovered, modern studio engineers know how to mic-up a drum kit and they know how to record live in the studio, just as bands know how to play live. As far as I know Wilson has only mentioned one track off the album being recorded in that way because of how that particular track works so well when played live, but as you say, it will be interesting to see/hear what he produces. However, it is just a recording technique and few Prog albums were ever recorded like that even in the heyday. There are huge differences between recording a track live in the studio, recording live instruments individually in a studio and using "computers and samples" in a studio.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: December 09 2012 at 07:41 | ||
For sure generalizing is dangerous and unfair, there are a lot of modern albums which sound great and I have no doubt that they didn't get much if any tweaking, but there are some which certainly feel cold and clinical, and that was not possible in the 70's simply because the technology was not there, they might sound bad but not cold and clinical in the same sense.
Modern one-man projects are likely candidates for this since they are developed in a computer DAW (something which Oldfield's original Tubular Bells didn't suffer of). Without much thinking, I could name Birds And Buildings Bantam To Behemoth, some Phideaux or some Magellan as clinical-sounding for my taste.
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Anaon
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 01 2005 Location: Kobaļa Status: Offline Points: 849 |
Posted: December 09 2012 at 07:25 | ||
Well, as a home studio owner myself, I know what you mean. I can't really give you any real examples as you guess, I'd love to know how modern bands work today in recording studio. It's interesting to see that Steven Wilson records live in the studio his upcoming album, it's a new approach for him it seems and will certainly adds something to the overall sound.
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: December 09 2012 at 06:16 | ||
Oldfield is an interesting one because he has always used a "do it yourself" approach, whether that was "borrowing" spare time at The Manor or using his own studio. Certainly I find the pristine recording of Tubular Bells 2003 to be less satisfying than the undeniably flawed original, and I will always prefer the live version from 1973.
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Anaon
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 01 2005 Location: Kobaļa Status: Offline Points: 849 |
Posted: December 09 2012 at 05:59 | ||
I'm really not sure about studio time today... I think it's still very expensive and if producers can save some time, they do it. It's different for bands who own their own studios though.
This discussion reminds me of what Mike Oldfield is saying concerning his upcoming new album : "I'm fed up with all these computers and samplers, the next album's going to be hard rock, lots of guitars, real drums, real vocals, Hammond organs." |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: December 09 2012 at 05:46 | ||
What modern production technology allows a musician to do is "get it right" because multiple takes and retakes are far easier now - they don't have to use any studio skill and trickery in recording a punch-in/out overdub section with modern equipment like in the days of analogue recording. When you've only got 16 or 24 tracks to play with there is a limit to how many takes you can pick and chose the best of a particular instrument when producing the final mix, modern digital studios do not have that limitation.
Studio time is another factor that was a luxury back in the day that is less important today, musicians have more time to "get it right" now, the pressure of wasting studio time on retakes is reduced (and with that, fewer mistakes are both made and allowed to remain).
Note for note perfection can actually be the result of a musician playing well and producing the goods by his own skill and technique, the modern studio allows that ideal to be a reality without recourse to "cheating" and without sacrificing the human element of the musician playing his instrument to the best of his ability. To me there seems something disingenuous in a genre renowned for elitism, pretentiousness, skillful musicianship and the search for perfection that when someone actually produces something that fits that description we assume it is the result of some studio trickery and not attributable to the musician's ability
I think we are prone to compare the worst of what we don't like with the best of what we do like and I don't think that is fair or reasonable. So if there are good modern productions (which I firmly believe there are), then they should be the yard-stick by which we make any comparative judgement, not only against the best and worse of past recordings, but with the best and worse of modern recordings.
I do not hear a lot of cold and clinical sounding albums: I'm currently listening to Francis Lickerish's new album and it is a deep and warm sumptuous mix of subtlety and bombastic drama that has characterised his music since he produced Fand on The Enid's Aerie Faerie Nonsense back in 1977; similarly Rick Wakeman's 2012 re-recording of Journey To The Centre Of The Earth is far from cold and clinical, the same can be said of Steve Hackett's Genesis Revisited II. All of those give us an insight to what the musician wanted to achieve in the 70s with what they can achieve today, that they are consummate musicians of skill and ability is beyond reproach, it would be a brave man to accuse Lickerish, Wakeman or Hackett of not being able to actually play the notes they record, of using tweaking and editing to achieve that perfect studio performance. When we then compare those to the works of younger musicians who do not have that "then and now" provenance can we not then afford them the same honour and courtesy?
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: December 09 2012 at 04:52 | ||
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Anaon
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 01 2005 Location: Kobaļa Status: Offline Points: 849 |
Posted: December 09 2012 at 03:58 | ||
Maybe it's more about the way that albums are mixed and mastered today that many people don't like more than just a digital/analog difference.
I love how 70's albums and classic prog rock albums are mixed and produced, so much that it influences me on how I like the music today. The way it's played (not copy/paste), mixed, mastered is the most important in my opinion. Modern bands could record only on analog gear and release a vinyl, I'm not sure it would sound "analog" the way it was in the 70's. Some bands achieve this though but it's quite rare.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: December 09 2012 at 03:31 | ||
I guess that this has been said before, but in any case the argument towards analog would only be valid for old vinyls recorded using a completely analog process.
Most modern musicians employ digital equipment in their playing, recording or mastering so even if they release their work in vinyl the source will be digital and anybody claiming that the vinyl sounds better than the CD would be necessarily a fool.
I guess that even most modern vinyl re-editions of old albums come from some digital treatment so the love for "pure analog" is limited to listening to actual old vinyls (or magnetic tapes) which in time will necessarily wear and tear, so like it or not, analog is a thing of the past.
Personally I'm happy that with CD's I don't have to worry about background noise, cracks, having to clean the disc everytime before playing it, replacing the pickup needle, tapes getting stuck or twisted etc. Even if the sound quality would really be a bit inferior, CD is so much more practical.
The only pitty is the size of the artwork Edited by Gerinski - December 09 2012 at 03:32 |
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Aquiring the Taste
Forum Groupie Joined: October 23 2012 Status: Offline Points: 68 |
Posted: December 08 2012 at 23:41 | ||
Consider the source. |
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Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.
Oscar Wilde, De Profundis, 1905 |
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 30 2012 Location: HiFi Headmania Status: Offline Points: 7849 |
Posted: December 04 2012 at 20:13 | ||
Oh man. It really isn't. |
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: December 04 2012 at 01:11 | ||
Edited by Dean - December 04 2012 at 02:41 |
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Aquiring the Taste
Forum Groupie Joined: October 23 2012 Status: Offline Points: 68 |
Posted: December 03 2012 at 19:13 | ||
As a site administrator, you have the ability to find out, it's the only site where I have this issue |
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Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.
Oscar Wilde, De Profundis, 1905 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: December 03 2012 at 17:04 | ||
The only logical explanation.
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timothy leary
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 29 2005 Location: Lilliwaup, Wa. Status: Offline Points: 5319 |
Posted: December 03 2012 at 17:02 | ||
Hitler did it
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: December 03 2012 at 16:53 | ||
(I have cronies??? !!! bring them forth at once I must see these beings for myself!)
I don't know where or even what the problem is but it is nothing to do with the site, me or any other Admin. You have posted this post from the same address as your previous posts and your account is active with all the rights and accesses you are entitled to have - that indicates that all avenues that can be opened are open because all we can do is suspend your account or block your IP address, and it is plain to see that neither of those have happened
If you cannot post anywhere (?) on the site or send PMs then it is possibly something your end that is causing the problem, such as cookies or browser security.
In future I would suggest checking at least one or maybe two facts before throwing around casual accusations.
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Aquiring the Taste
Forum Groupie Joined: October 23 2012 Status: Offline Points: 68 |
Posted: December 03 2012 at 15:44 | ||
Being now, not capable of posting anywhere on this sight, or able to send PMs, this avenue will close also. I don't know whether Dean or one of his Cronies is responsible, but it is Hitlerean. When insecurity & derission drives the argument away from the O.P. & into the sought of childish behaviour evident in the last few posts, you have your answer. |
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Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.
Oscar Wilde, De Profundis, 1905 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: December 03 2012 at 12:54 | ||
For that you need lots of these:
which, we all know is an ancient technology:
but as anyone will tell you, they can contain a lot more detail than you'd imagine:
and can even be used for the ultimate playback media, compact cassette:
However, you need to watch out for distortion:
which can look a bit ugly:
but can sound as true as a bell:
and can be made in stereo:
as long as you use the right interconnects:
and can also be used to make a top-notch radio receiver:
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