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Aquiring the Taste View Drop Down
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Points: 68 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2012 at 03:26
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


...

Actually, this is a perfect example of being blinded by science.  ...

 

I think it a bit safer than being blinded by religion, btw!

 

It's a mute point ... both have their good and bad, in history ...!!!
No Gods a Man, No Gods a Man....
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Points: 7867 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2012 at 05:33
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

I.Digital has it's place, but not in music or art.  As soon as you sample, pixel etc.. that degradation can never be recovered no matter how you try... what you say, or make attempts to scientifically falsely claim otherwise.I am not angry at anything here.. just keeping you honest and letting other readers hear know that what you say is not only incorrect, it is promoting an inferior experience than what could be had.  For those that really love music, do a bit of research, get into a decent analog rig and you won't regret. 


You see this is why you get into trouble with people in this forum because when your arguing and stating opinions is based more on feeling rather than rationality. Saying that Digital has no place in musi or the arts?? Well what rational person says that?? Come on man, your better than that.
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Points: 7867 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 28 2012 at 05:46
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

I believe things fall to Earth because of gravity is not a belief systemActually, this is a perfect example of being blinded by science.  Science once said this to be true, in the Newtonian era.But now science understands that gravity is actually not what it seems.  Things DO NOT fall to the earth... what they are actually doing is just holding their position in curved space. 

Hmm, you've tried this one before and it didn't quite work then either. Newtonian gravity is still valid in cases of low mass and low velocity (resulting in low-gravity, such as that exerted by the Earth on any object in its proximity) so it is still used for computations involving gravity such as balistics and aerodynamics and a multitude of other things. Newton's law of gravitaion is now considered to be the low-gravity limit of general relativity (not "special relativity" as you used in your previous attempt). We only need to venture beyond that when we consider masses and velocities on a cosmological scale. Objects do not hold their position in curved space, that's the whole point of curved spaced - the description of movement of objects relative to each other, in that it causes objects to move towards each other determined by the degree which the mass of the objects curve timespace. If you are standing on the larger mass then the smaller one will appear (relatively) to fall towards you and that is a convienient and factual way of describing the action between them. For Earth-bound objects my statement is true and valid, yours is not. Of course you could try repeating the mantra 'objects hold their position in curved space' next time you trip over, just as the ground rushes up and hits you in the face.
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

So while you think that a digital sampling of an analog sound wave is superior to the original form, it simply cannot be, and no amount of pseudoscience could ever get a rational person to believe this. 

One more time: I do not think that digital sampling of an analogue sound is superior to the original form, I also do not think that an analogue recording of an analogue sound is superior to the original form either. I have stated this so often now I should have programmed it into one of my laptop's function keys. You have grasped one of these statements but appear to ignore the other.

Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

Keep drinking the tonic mate. 

I ain't your mate.
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

The world is trying so hard to convince us all to take the digital pill for art and music and culture, but it will not ever work.

The world isn't trying to convince anyone of anything.

Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


Digital has it's place, but not in music or art.  As soon as you sample, pixel etc.. that degradation can never be recovered no matter how you try... what you say, or make attempts to scientifically falsely claim otherwise.

Both recording methods degrade, that is a scientific fact and neither system is capable of recovering that, this is also a scientific fact. The questions that arise as a result of those two salient scientific facts are concerned with what these degradations are, how much effect they have and what can be done to reduce them and/or minimise their effects.

 

You can stick your fingers in your ears,  or head in the sand, or whatever it is you need to do and accept that those degradations of your preferred system are what they are because perfection (by your own subjective assessment) has been achieved and I am perfectly fine with that. People (i.e., not me) who make the same categorical claims about digital that you make about analogue have also accepted the degradations caused by their prefer method. The difference is those people haven't come to this thread and made unsubstantiated claims - if they did I would try and explain what they presented as "truth" were perhaps not truth at all and I would continue to do that from a technical/engineering/scientific perspective since that is the scientific method - present a hypothesis and then test it for all known data - if it fails then bin it. Because that's what I do - I do not defend good science, but I cannot let a statement containing bad science or pseudoscience (and the two are very different btw), or one that is based upon misapplication (or poor understanding) of good science go uncommented.

 

You have hit a mental block on quantisation and no matter how much I try and explain that process, you will continue to see it as something missing, even when in reality it is something added that can later be removed. The fault there lies with the engineers who first drew a stepped quantised waveform to explain the process - it never looks like that - put an oscilloscope on the analogue output of a CD player and you will not see a stepped waveform. But the damage has been done, that picture is burnt into your memory ... a step transition from one small voltage level to another every 5.208µS with all the wiggly bits between them flattened out like a plateau from a Sir Arthur Conan Doyle lost world, (except of course there are no wiggly bits between them in analogue domain either so what is perceived as missing was never there), however, it is indelibly etched into your understanding of how stuff works so that you can even believe you hear it with your fingers rammed firmly in your ears.

Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

I am not angry at anything here.. just keeping you honest and letting other readers hear know that what you say is not only incorrect, it is promoting an inferior experience than what could be had. 

I have never presumed that you were ever angry at anything, I see no reason why you ever should be. When you are ready to tell to those sitting in the cheap seats precisely what it is I am saying that is incorrect, and moreover, explain to them exactly why it is incorrect, and give them an irrefutable, repeatable and rational explanation that does not rely on some subjective assessment or unquantifiable indescribable perception by way of a counter-argument then I will happily sit back, listen and take copious notes. I still will not say which I prefer though.

 

Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

For those that really love music, do a bit of research, get into a decent analog rig and you won't regret. 

 

For those who really love music, just listen to the music and ignore both of us. If you like what you hear and it makes you happy then any idea of regret is not something to dwell upon.


Gotta be honest, it's all very fun to read.
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Points: 68 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2012 at 01:00
Painting by numbers was quite popular in the sixties but nobody considers it art.
Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2012 at 04:38
^bad analogy
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2012 at 04:47
^ but amusing on so many levels.
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 29 2012 at 15:58
[QUOTE=Aquiring the Taste]Painting by numbers was quite popular in the sixties but nobody considers it art.[/QUOTEIn 2011, The Museum of Modern Art in New York accepted four early designs of Paint by Number by Max Klein for its Department of Architecture and Design, donated by Jacquelyn Schiffman.

Of course your opinion is more valid and I am sure they will dispose of these works soon.
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Points: 68 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 03:23
Thank you my friend, but I hope they don't.
It might catch on & ultimatey displace the old stuff to the point where the value of the discarded works plumit to prices I can afford.
Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 05:02
Originally posted by Aquiring the Taste Aquiring the Taste wrote:

Thank you my friend, but I hope they don't.
It might catch on & ultimatey displace the old stuff to the point where the value of the discarded works plumit to prices I can afford.
While this is an off-topic side track that for me has little value when related back to Progressive Rock and Analogue vs Digital formats it does raise the age-old questions of "what is art?" and "what is the value of art?"
 
The acceptance of Paint by Number by Max Klein or Richard Hess's "painting by numbers" illustration of President LB Johnson (exhibited in Le Louvre in Paris) as Art with a capital "A" does not elevate all painting by numbers images to Art with a capital "A", nor does it devalue any other form of art any more than the Pop-Art of Andy Warhol and Roy Lichtenstein devalued works by Rembrandt or Van Gogh. The value of art cannot be determined by any quantitative or qualitative measures, nor is it decided by any subjective or objective assessment of the pieces themselves.
 
While I see no artistic merit in colouring-in a line drawing created by someone else, I do recognise the skill required in producing the original line-drawing even if that is merely a reproduction of a prior work of "Art". However, there are cases where the original line-drawing is an original piece of art (as in the case of Richard Hess).
 
Painting by numbers is a quantisation effect, no different to posterisation used by Warhol or the graphic artwork used by Lichtenstein, which in turn is no different to the expressionist techniques used by Van Gogh, or the pointillism of Seurat, or the reduction of linear graduation in pigment to block areas of colour and form by Picasso. Taken to the extreme Titian, Rubens and  Rembrandt all used "quantised" daubs of single colour to create artistic realisations of a "real" scene (even if it was from the imagination of the artist), but even when there is a degree of realism in the final work it cannot be zoomed indefinitely to gain more detail. All of those are called "Art" when they are used to produce a piece of Art. When that is deemed as "not art" it is not the method or the technique that is at fault, but the application and interpretation.
 
Quantisation in music is a (somewhat) misunderstood and misused term that is seldom used as an artistic tool - the only example I can think of is Chiptune (or 8-Bit music) and the only Prog artists I know of that used that was Kraftwerk. That aside, in modern times quantisation refers to two different and unrelated technologies: the first is obviously the quantisation of analogue voltage levels produced when converting from analogue to digital formats that has been discussed at length in this (and several other) threads; and the second refers to the quantisation of individual notes (usually recorded via Midi) to pitch and timing - having tried that myself on keyboard tracks I've recorded using Midi I have to say I don't like it and have never used it - and I much prefer to record the audio produced by the keyboard itself anyway. That [note quantisation] can be achieved on a "live" sound using a vocoder or the dreaded Autotune or by manually "tweaking" each note in ProTools, but I do not believe the use of that (especially in Progressive Music) is as prevalent and widespread as some people claim it is

Collage is another "Art" technique that can draw parallels to the music world (sampling) - done badly I could never call that art, but done well (for example by Peter Blake) few would deny that is Art. In the music world if that sampling is produced by digital or analogue means it is not the technique or the method that is at fault but how it is used, again, few here would claim that using a sampled orchestra on a Mellotron or a Fairlight cannot be used to produce "Art".
 
 
 


Edited by Dean - November 30 2012 at 05:12
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 10:51
I never said all paint by numbers is art, just as all music tagged prog rock is certainly not prog rock. I would think it is as meaningless to argue about it as it is to argue analog vs. digital. 24 pages of argument when it could have been distilled down to a couple of paragraphs. I wonder is the "critique" of art and music to be considered art in an of itself. Soldier on you warriors of one upmanship.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 13:37
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

I never said all paint by numbers is art, just as all music tagged prog rock is certainly not prog rock. I would think it is as meaningless to argue about it as it is to argue analog vs. digital. 24 pages of argument when it could have been distilled down to a couple of paragraphs. I wonder is the "critique" of art and music to be considered art in an of itself. Soldier on you warriors of one upmanship.
Confused I never said that you did say all paint by numbers is art. If that's all you managed to understand from my "one upmanship" then my inability to write comprehensible text is far worse than I imagined. I suggest everyone stops reading it immediately. Ouch
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 13:44
^No Dean. Your posts are always clear and informative.Wink
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 13:54
^ no Dean, I mean yes yes yes, go back and read your posts in this thread and tell me  you are not the perfect yes man to Dean's posts.....hilarious
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Points: 346 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 13:56
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 14:01
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

^ no Dean, I mean yes yes yes, go back and read your posts in this thread and tell me  you are not the perfect yes man to Dean's posts.....hilarious

I happen to agree with him. Not always.  But here yes. One difference is that Dean will not say which medium he prefers. I on the other hand definitely do not like vinyl and  do like CD and I think it is  a superior format.


Edited by Snow Dog - November 30 2012 at 14:01
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 14:06
^ and I respect your opinion and when I am responding to Dean I will either quote him or put this symbol^
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 14:09
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

^ and I respect your opinion and when I am responding to Dean I will either quote him or put this symbol^

I think I may have become confused. I thought you were refering to me being a "yes man". But I'm not at all sure now. Forgive me if I am wrong.
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 14:16
Yes I believe you could be construed a yes man, what is it you are agreeing with Dean on since you have made a choice and he has not? I don't want to derail this thread so you should not take my opinion as being fact^

Edited by timothy leary - November 30 2012 at 14:16
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 14:19
Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

Yes I believe you could be construed a yes man, what is it you are agreeing with Dean on since you have made a choice and he has not? I don't want to derail this thread so you should not take my opinion as being fact^


If I  am being construed as a yes man then you have to tell me why. You made the accusation it seems and now you want me to prove it true?

And I woulld never take your opinion  as fact.
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Points: 5319 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2012 at 14:30
Review your posts in this thread, I am not going to collect them and  post them. Start at page one and look at them.
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