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moshkito

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Posted: November 20 2012 at 08:53

Dean wrote:

moshkito wrote:

[All in all, the biggest thing always was that music changed and WE DIDN'T! ... and sometimes we have this thing that we have to be just like yesterday in order to believe that something was happening ... arts, music, film, literature ... they are happening all the time! ... the only difference is that you have your nose stuck on American Idol, or English Idiot ... because of the advertising and you are not "tuned" to hear other things ... that would help you understand and define "progressive" even better.

I hear this a lot and it doesn't make any sense to me. You cannot make people like what you like any more than you can be made to like what they like. If people like the instant gratification of reality tv and wannabe-famous pop-stars then that's what they like. Back in the day those people didn't like what you liked either - they listened to Top-40 one-hit-wonders and watched soap opera tv and quiz shows just as they do now; they never went to see art-house films or anything that required reading subtitles, they flocked en-mass to see Jaws and Rocky and they were more likely to read Jackie Collins than Wilkie Collins (just as they're more likely to read Suzanne Collins today).

...

This is one issue that is tough ... you do know that the same academic quarter says that you are not "educated" because you do not take a look at the "other side" of the arts, beyond popular culture.

It's similar here, and we do this in the opposite camp as well.

If you make a list of "famous" artists, writers, painters, film makers and such, in other camps of the arts, you will find, quick enough ... that ... hmmm ... I know these bands, but I do not know a whole lot else about the time and place ... and the very best that you can look at these days that has a VISIBLE record -- is FILM! ... you can still find the videos around and watch the movies ... much easier than you can identify a writer, other than Jackie Collins or Stephen King!

You KNOW there is more out there ... and folks like you know that ... but yes, generally speaking ... we're all stuck in one spot ... but how good are your antennae? ... I would say very good, for you ... not so good for others, see the difference?

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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moshkito

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Posted: November 20 2012 at 09:16

Dean wrote:

moshkito wrote:

The majority of Admins and well meaning folks in this board, KNOW this ... and yes, all of us still ahve a few favorites ... but we never gave up the ability to hear different things ... and this is the reason why sometimes a lot of the "prog" threads are so .... bummer -- man !!!! ... because many of those threads are just fan-rap ... and that stuff is exactly what will be dead and gone tomorrow, replaced by something else.

In general most people who post stuff like this make it up as they go along. I know I do.

I don't make things up, as much as I think sometimes ... generally speaking, it has all been a part of my growing up ... I did go to school, I did go to college, I did direct many plays, I did film many things, I am working on a film, I am writing all the time, and the only difference is that the "shape" of the book on "progressive" music gets ... pretty much, I can tell you ... better cleaned up and beef'd up because of these discussions.

Through them, I can see holes in the ground, where it was not thought out as well as it could have been ... and too many times ... this is an opportunity to clean it up. IF ... all that means anything to you, and to me, this is not all poop that you just flush away! I believe in the human spirit way too much to think that we should waste it that easily!

All in all, if I have a comment, it would be that when you say that, you are making it look like what you know and have leanrt is not important ... or valuable ... to your experience, and that you have not learned to "make sense" of it and brought it forward ... for others ... like many of us ... WAKE UP ... you are a HISTORIAN of the time and place that included "progressive music" ... and when you are writing about it here ... you are writing a compendium about the time and place and the music ... you JUST DON'T SEE IT THAT WAY!

The only things I could easily say I "make up" as I go along ... would more likely be the smart-a$$ comments and the jokes ... can't help those, and the humor that some of you guys have (English Humor is my fave, as you know!) ... some dandy moments! The rest ... is all a part of my experience ... I told you before ... it's what I felt, saw, experience, and was around me, that I saw and noticed ... but I can easily tell you that one guy's comment on the radio station said it all .... "it's not rock'm'roll" ... and Guy's reply, was more important ... "who cares? ... it's great music!" ... and the song? ... "Are You Receiving Me?" by Golden Earring.

This is the point ... when you are only looking at one thing ... you miss the other ... and I have more examples, of him ... mentioning PH ... that he could not handle ... when Godbluff came out ... and Guy was playing PH from day one that he went on the air in Santa Barbara!

It's your focus ... if you have blinders on, all you see is in one direction ... some grow up beyond that ... some don't!

But to say that the arts, regardless of which, did not happen, or exist ... is not only stupid ... is downright ignorant! And I'm not trying to be rude ... just REAL!

Edited by moshkito - November 20 2012 at 09:20

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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rogerthat

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Posted: November 20 2012 at 10:20

HackettFan wrote:

Dean, know that, aside from this thread, I find myself usually pretty like minded with you. However, I don't understand assertion that what people like is not contagious. It seems to me it most certainly is. Radio programming I think is very effective in shaping overall likes and dislikes. Of course eventually the musicians and the fan base did in fact lose interest, but I see this as symptomatic of outside pressures, mainly business pressures. Purely internal or home bred loss of interest is valid to an extent, but less compelling to me as the ultimate explanation.

Well, I do think the labels and the media have played a role in suppressing prog for SUBSEQUENT generations. Suppressing is probably too strong a word, maybe disdain is nearer the mark. But at the same time that albums like Pink Moon have gained revisionist favour, prog albums that were among the bestsellers of their time are almost forgotten as far as the mainstream goes. There is undeniably a reluctance in the media to celebrate even those prog albums which were liked by the public at that time. That pop is ephemeral and disappears after enjoying its fifteen minutes of fame is one thing; but that hugely overrated albums like Appetite for Destruction are held up in the top tier of influential rock music and forced upon us until it is impossible for us to forget about them is another.

There is some inconsistency that way in the attitude of the mainstream, certainly, in the way some bands are pushed ahead of the others. It is not surprising and it most likely has a lot to do with relationships and, er, business prospects than any erudite attempt to evaluate these albums. But, I, for instance, had to read about all these prog albums from progarchives while it is much easier to get information about popular classic rock/hard rock/heavy metal albums from that period.

Dean

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Posted: November 20 2012 at 14:25

It is a question of what is contageous to whom. People who like Progressive Rock are not going to be persuaded to replace their entire record colection with Rap, R&B and Disco albums just by constant bombardment of those genres of music on the radio. We (as Prog fans) have proven to be immune to that kind of music for long enough now for the point I'm making to be blatantly obvious surely. The kind of people in the 80s, 90s, 00s and 10s who would have liked Prog Rock had it survived did not go out and fill their walkmans, discmans and iPlods with Rap, R&B and Disco albums - that kind of person bought other genres of music that filled the gap that Prog left, whether that was post-punk or grunge or indie-rock or whatever. When it comes to just basing what people will buy on what gets played on the radio then Rock (in anyform) would be dead and long gone by now and no one would ever have heard of Metal.

Edited by Dean - November 20 2012 at 14:26

What?

Dean

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Posted: November 20 2012 at 14:33

moshkito wrote:

Dean wrote:

...

This is one issue that is tough ... you do know that the same academic quarter says that you are not "educated" because you do not take a look at the "other side" of the arts, beyond popular culture.

It's similar here, and we do this in the opposite camp as well.

I say we are probabbly in general agreement but are arguing about where the demarcation line should be drawn. You frequently us the phrase "most here" in the negative sense of pushing them out there with all the others, where I use it in the possitive sense of pulling them all in here with us. Yours seems to be an exclusive club, whereas mine is more inclusive that's all.

What?

Dean

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Posted: November 20 2012 at 14:57

moshkito wrote:

Dean wrote:

moshkito wrote:

The majority of Admins and well meaning folks in this board, KNOW this ... and yes, all of us still ahve a few favorites ... but we never gave up the ability to hear different things ... and this is the reason why sometimes a lot of the "prog" threads are so .... bummer -- man !!!! ... because many of those threads are just fan-rap ... and that stuff is exactly what will be dead and gone tomorrow, replaced by something else.

In general most people who post stuff like this make it up as they go along. I know I do.

It's your focus ... if you have blinders on, all you see is in one direction ... some grow up beyond that ... some don't!

But to say that the arts, regardless of which, did not happen, or exist ... is not only stupid ... is downright ignorant! And I'm not trying to be rude ... just REAL!

And neither am I. BUT I will tell you this - the problem I have, and have always had, is when someone tells me what I know, or to be more precise, when they tell a whole bunch of people what they do not know. I have been on this forum each day and every day for the past 5 years and I can recognise a hell of a lot of different user-names that appear here from time to time. And for some of those hundreds of people I know a little of their musical likes and dislikes and for a very few of them I may know a little of the kinds of art or literature they like and I may even have a slight inkling to how much they might know of a few specific subjects, but I would never presume to know even a merest fraction about anything they like or know unless they'd actually told me.

Edited by Dean - November 20 2012 at 14:58

What?

Neelus

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Posted: November 20 2012 at 15:34

I am going to attempt to make sense of this. I might be wrong, forgive me. Pedro, I think what you are trying to say is that many people in general don't value art as much as it deserves to be valued (by writing "made up" threads based on "fan rap"), and that this "mind set" plays a role in the fact that alot of good music ends up in the "attics" of society. I can see some substance in this argument, however I can also see that the argument can create an "us and them" scenario in the case of "they don't get it, but I do because all my threads have substance, and all they can write is unreal animal fodder." I think this is what Dean is trying to say, not to exclude certain folks like this, and I find substance to this argument as well. I feel there is place for both in this space, as one is fun, and the other educating, both equally important, and both I feel should include all parties interested. That keeps an art alive too.

progbethyname View Drop Down

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Posted: November 20 2012 at 16:35

moshkito wrote:

Dean wrote:

moshkito wrote:

In general most people who post stuff like this make it up as they go along. I know I do.

It's your focus ... if you have blinders on, all you see is in one direction ... some grow up beyond that ... some don't!

But to say that the arts, regardless of which, did not happen, or exist ... is not only stupid ... is downright ignorant! And I'm not trying to be rude ... just REAL!

Some see very far, but very narrowly. That's the general scope Of the human condition.

Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣

progbethyname View Drop Down

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Posted: November 20 2012 at 16:40

AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:

Classic Rock went down the gurglar in the 80s.

The uprising of punk and disco killed it in 1978 and 1979.

In the early 80s the sound changed to electro and synth.

Gone are the epics and weirdness to make way for the new 80s sound. New Wave bands flourished such as Visage, Ultravox, Depeche Mode, Toyah and Gary Numan. I loved it at the time but it was killing prog.

In 1982 Signals by Rush was about as good as it got at this point.

In 1982 the top prog albums were 4 - Peter Gabriel, Time To Turn – Eloy, Fact and Fiction – Twelfth Night, Five Miles Out – Mike Oldfield, Enter K – Peter Hammill, Ship Arriving Too Late To Save A Drowning Witch – Frank Zappa, Eye In The Sky – Alan Parsons Project, The Broadsword and the Beast – Jethro Tull. Signals by Rush was prog album of the year.

In 1983 it was Marillion. The debut for Marillion is a milestone album that virtually started the Neo Prog genre single handedly and also kept alive the prog scene during the difficult 80s. Prog took a nosedive after the glorious 70s and bands like Rush and Marillion were the saviours of the genre.

In 1984 it was Grace Under Pressure by Rush.

Here is a short exploration of the 80s. The bands that were producing the best prog albums of the year 1984 were neo proggers, Marillion ("Fugazi", and the live "Real to Reel"), eclectic pioneers, King Crimson ("Three of a Perfect Pair") and Solaris ("Marsbeli Kronikak"). Others that were making some sort of impact were Uzed ("Univers Zero"), Pallas ("The Sentinel") and Camel ("Stationary Traveller"). Queensryche were beginning to make progress ("The Warning") as were Los Jaivas ("Obras De Violeta Parra"), however progressive rock was being phased out gradually with the uprising of manufactured synth and electronica. I am not talking about the innovative prog electronica of Kraftwerk, this was a crystal clean sickly sweet saccharine sound adopted by 80s pop icons such as Prince, Culture Club, Chaka Khan, John Waite, Duran Duran, Thompson Twins, Sheila E, Cyndi Lauper and Eurythmics. The hit singles were dominated by the power ballad, noteworthy were 'Oh Sherrie' by Steve Perry, and there were the curios too of one hit wonders such as '99 Luftballons' by Nena. This is what Rush were contending with and few people were interested in the prog epic or songs with odd time signatures. Even classic prog icons Yes sold out with their album "90125" and Genesis who had a hit with 'That's All'. And metal was being split in half, mellowing to synth patterns with Van Halen's 'Jump' and ZZ Top's 'Legs' making it big on the mainstream charts, and becoming more defined and popular with such albums as Metallica's "Ride The Lightning" and Iron Maiden's "Powerslave". A year of transformation you might say.

Geez Scott, what a great Outlook on the times! Ya freakin nailed it! I agree so much of what you said here.

Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣

moshkito

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Posted: November 21 2012 at 08:31

Neelus wrote:

I am going to attempt to make sense of this. I might be wrong, forgive me. Pedro, I think what you are trying to say is that many people in general don't value art as much as it deserves to be valued (by writing "made up" threads based on "fan rap"), and that this "mind set" plays a role in the fact that alot of good music ends up in the "attics" of society. I can see some substance in this argument, however I can also see that the argument can create an "us and them" scenario in the case of "they don't get it, but I do because all my threads have substance, and all they can write is unreal animal fodder." I think this is what Dean is trying to say, not to exclude certain folks like this, and I find substance to this argument as well. I feel there is place for both in this space, as one is fun, and the other educating, both equally important, and both I feel should include all parties interested. That keeps an art alive too.

I was aware of "Us and Them", in Brazil ... when we pretty much lived in a shack in straw mattresses!

A lot of music, that spoke for freedoms that we did not have, was important to us ... still is ... though for many fans it is a lost feeling that many do not understand ... and Jimi's anthem ... is one of the most inspiring things for me because of it. But the lifting of the music ... to a more important and valuable level? ... it's all trash, isn't it?

Not for me!

I know that I say that things like this teach you the value of the music, BEYOND entertainment ... and then, one day, you read about Strauss and how he wrote this symphony about this, or Mahler and how he wrote this for his wife ... that left him anyway! ... and you do not wonder about the music ... and too much rock music, and popular music has depended for far too long on "lyrics" that supposedly mean something, whereas the feel and experience of the music itself, gets lost behind wording and ideas and ... of course ... a stairway to heaven!

All in all, I'm not here to tell folks that they need to change the color of their hair, or the suits they are wearing, in order to appreciate this or that ... I'm merely suggesting that they try a pair of jeans ... before they decide that slacks is what they want to use the rest of their lives! This is NOT an issue, in Europe (in general!) because you can turn on the radio and hear different countries and cultures and musics ... you get more conditioned about different things ... music and the arts being the most visible.

But it's almost like saying that Austen, or TS Elliot are literature and Moliere, Cervantez, Dante, George Amado, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, are not ... simply because we do not understand where they come from and how they work and do their thing ... and this is the only thing that folks here are -- often -- telling me that I am creating an US and Them thing, when in fact I am merely comparing the differences.

I can handle, and understand, the need for its sub-divisions, with one issue ... most of these are based on the "sound", and NOT the composition, and that is a very 20th century thing but is not the history of music ... and I keep thinking that rock music is also a part of the history of music ... though some do not think it is so, and that this is just popular music ... the history of which is simply about the stars and the top ten!

I'm not sitting here ... telling you about "Us and Them" ... I'm here telling you that there is more ... and the rest lies with you ... how much more do you want to know and learn ... and one day you might appreciate this from the eyes of an educator, rather than a fan! If you, or others, have issues with teaches and educators ... making a point about "Us and Them" gets to be a bit like the Sex Pistols ... the meaning dies off real quick, when the rest of the work is in vain?

You decide!

Dean is not incorrect ... and I can relate to his words ... and appreciate more than anyone else his effort and even his detailed discussions and attempts to help define and understand things! Honestly? ... I wish there were more folks doing the same thing, instead of worrying about the differences between us ... so that a veritable "us and them" dissolves quickly ... !

Edited by moshkito - November 21 2012 at 08:47

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Posted: November 21 2012 at 10:06

I wish there were more folks doing the same thing, hell is repetition, maybe we could all just conform.

rogerthat

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Posted: November 21 2012 at 10:29

I love the fact that we are all different in so many ways. It would be so boring if we all had the same tastes in music or whatever else. Nothing to talk about, nothing to learn. What I don't like is when elitist lines are drawn between people on the basis of such taste. If you like what you listen to, whether it is 'superior' or not should not matter to you. What a great opera singer does is certainly at a different level, technically, compared to a run of the mill rock singer but I would rather hear that from said opera singer than somebody who just listens to opera. Listening to technical music doesn't make you more technical than the masses.

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Posted: November 21 2012 at 12:55

While I agree that the "classic" sound of Yes, Genesis, and ELP lost some popularity with the emergence of punk, I might also argue that punk didn't kill prog altogether, but ushered forth a new era of prog.

Many audiences were already hostile to progressive rock. Gentle Giant was cherry bombed while opening for Black Sabbath. The symph prog bands were sometimes criticized for their "tedious" concept albums. While many prog bands had commercial and critical success, the acclaim was rarely unanimous, which is to be expected for such challenging music. Prog was losing its market as it became more challenging. Tales from Topographic Oceans was certainly more challenging than, say, Fragile. Because of this and the ever-changing tastes of many audiences, record labels both looked for new artists who weren't and wouldn't be involved in concept albums and epics and urged their currently signed artists to write and play to the most casual and undiscerning of listeners. Many of these artists did so. Thus, punk, disco, and New Wave started to rise in popularity in the late 70s.

Punk was almost a return to the primal noise and three-chord progressions of Buddy Holly and Chuck Berry. It was as if the slate of rock innovation had been wiped clean to start over again. Gradually, the drones and sonic ambitions of krautrock, the frantic rhythms and harmonies of jazz, and even the wild aesthetic of twentieth-century classical music started to creep into punk, and soon, new genres like post-hardcore, post-punk, noise rock, math rock, and post-rock had taken shape. Without punk, we would not have Cardiacs, Radiohead, Drive like Jehu, Kayo Dot, Godspeed!, The Mars Volta, Muse, Opeth, or Porcupine Tree. While the last four aren't my cup of tea, they are some important names in prog and are worth mentioning here.

While concept albums and epics did fade in the 80s, the aspects in which progressive was most progressive (where they were sometimes ahead and not derivative of their classical and jazz compatriots: namely, their mixture of genres and their used of technology) continued. Obviously some of the effects of this were ill, but it did yield some of the greatest and most important records in history. King Crimson's Discipline, in my opinion, is their best album, and while many may disagree with that statement, they will agree that it was a very important album. Many prog bands turned into failed experiments (Genesis), but other bands took what they did in the 80s and expounded upon it in a convincing way.

Prog never really faded. Symph prog does not enjoy the same popularity that it did in the 70s, and "pop" music, whether we like it or not has gained popularity; however, there are still artists that are gaining popularity that are very challenging and progressive with their music and are playing arena shows.

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Posted: November 21 2012 at 13:09

One of the things about the 70's is that it was not cool to sound like someone else. Originality was much much more appreciated and copy cat bands did not do well. Today copy cat bands are the norm.. to be expected. I think there was a fine line between wearing your influences on your sleeve and actually going after the sound of another band. I remember people who loved Prog laughing at Starcastle. I laughed when I read an interview with one of the members denying recently that they were trying to sound like YES.

If you look at 70's hard rock, you had Sabbath which was a totally unique sound with a lot of dark religious catholic undertones. You had Zeppelin fusing blues and folk with heavy music and mystical lyrics. Uli Roth era Scorpions with a very unique guitar approach to heavy music and of course a very different German accented vocal approach, UFO with Schenker introducing the big classical music scales up and down a Flying V layered over hard rock music. Santana with the Latin element early on. Jeff Beck taking hard rock and jazz fusion, or extending ideas of Mahavishnu O.

In Prog you had ELP focusing on blending classical music with rock in a 3 piece set up with guitar NOT being the main attraction. YES with more melodic harmonies and metaphysical lyrics. Genesis taking prog into fantasy folklore in a very theatrical way. Tull blending Prog and English folk music. Gentlle Giant making sure they were totally different than anyone else, with all the vocal harmonies and multi faceted compositions. Floyd was all about slower tempos and psychedelic imagery and sweeping soundscapes. Crimson fusing jazz and Prog. Renaissance bridging classical and Prog with a female lead vocalist and Curved Air was similar but taking a more pastoral approach. Rush came out and blended hard rock and Prog in a trio.

The Prog I hear now sounds so derrivative. Even the newer classic Prog bands sound too derrivative.

In the bigger scope, when did the idea of being original sounding become uncool?

I don't think I have turned on the radio in America and heard anything original sounding in over 20 years.
Any why is the general public so in love with 4x4 time signatures when that is only ONE of so many options?

octopus-4

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Posted: November 21 2012 at 13:43

Punk didn't kill prog. Punk was able to kill only Sid Vicious and his wife.

I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution

richardh

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Posted: November 21 2012 at 13:58

Polymorphia wrote:

While I agree that the "classic" sound of Yes, Genesis, and ELP lost some popularity with the emergence of punk, I might also argue that punk didn't kill prog altogether, but ushered forth a new era of prog.

Many audiences were already hostile to progressive rock. Gentle Giant was cherry bombed while opening for Black Sabbath. The symph prog bands were sometimes criticized for their "tedious" concept albums. While many prog bands had commercial and critical success, the acclaim was rarely unanimous, which is to be expected for such challenging music. Prog was losing its market as it became more challenging. Tales from Topographic Oceans was certainly more challenging than, say, Fragile. Because of this and the ever-changing tastes of many audiences, record labels both looked for new artists who weren't and wouldn't be involved in concept albums and epics and urged their currently signed artists to write and play to the most casual and undiscerning of listeners. Many of these artists did so. Thus, punk, disco, and New Wave started to rise in popularity in the late 70s.

Punk was almost a return to the primal noise and three-chord progressions of Buddy Holly and Chuck Berry. It was as if the slate of rock innovation had been wiped clean to start over again. Gradually, the drones and sonic ambitions of krautrock, the frantic rhythms and harmonies of jazz, and even the wild aesthetic of twentieth-century classical music started to creep into punk, and soon, new genres like post-hardcore, post-punk, noise rock, math rock, and post-rock had taken shape. Without punk, we would not have Cardiacs, Radiohead, Drive like Jehu, Kayo Dot, Godspeed!, The Mars Volta, Muse, Opeth, or Porcupine Tree. While the last four aren't my cup of tea, they are some important names in prog and are worth mentioning here.

While concept albums and epics did fade in the 80s, the aspects in which progressive was most progressive (where they were sometimes ahead and not derivative of their classical and jazz compatriots: namely, their mixture of genres and their used of technology) continued. Obviously some of the effects of this were ill, but it did yield some of the greatest and most important records in history. King Crimson's Discipline, in my opinion, is their best album, and while many may disagree with that statement, they will agree that it was a very important album. Many prog bands turned into failed experiments (Genesis), but other bands took what they did in the 80s and expounded upon it in a convincing way.

Prog never really faded. Symph prog does not enjoy the same popularity that it did in the 70s, and "pop" music, whether we like it or not has gained popularity; however, there are still artists that are gaining popularity that are very challenging and progressive with their music and are playing arena shows.

on the last point I'm not convinced that symph prog was ever that succesffull. There was ELP , Yes , Genesis and??? Genesis didn't really consider themselves to be the same as ELP and Yes and probably with some justification. ELP were a supergroup that hit their mark and exploited technology perfectly during a short window of opportunity. Yes are for me the only truly commercial successful symph prog band over a signifiucant period of time. But it took a unique blend of the best musicians around to create that and the timing had to be perfect. It needs to be put in some perspective I believe.

Also I don't believe 'pop' music is now more popular. The seventies had an awfull lot of 'manufactured' bands that were utterly dreadful. Nowadays we have more or less the same situation but no Yes or ELP to balance it out ..sadly. Muse will just have to do

Edited by richardh - November 21 2012 at 13:58

moshkito

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Posted: November 21 2012 at 14:09

Surrealist wrote:

...

I don't think I have turned on the radio in America and heard anything original sounding in over 20 years.
Any why is the general public so in love with 4x4 time signatures when that is only ONE of so many options?
...

Radio is dead. And the likes of XM or Sirius are just another corporate venture to keep the money at home and only play the stuff they release. It has been like that for 30 plus years ... when FM radio, finally hit it really big with the likes of Dark Side of the Moon, that could not be appreciated without the STEREO ... instead of hearing the really bad (and censored) cut up version of Money on the AM radio!

The fidelity ... brought it all home ... but then, once radio got its finger and fudge finger, it was not a big thing, and all of the stations in the FM band that were big, became God in the music business, and 5 years later? ... they were all playing top ten from the FM thing ... which of course meant that The Who was there, so was Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd, Tom Petty, and a few others! The rest? ... gone!

Or as the station here in Portland says ... the largest music library in the nw ... to which I promptly state ... that never gets played!

But we had some examples in Santa Barbara that showed that people thinking that no one will like anything else, are seriously denying a truth about listeners ... they will GLADLY listen to something else ... but if you don't play it? ... and of course, they used to intimidate many of us by having a drunk idiot call up the station and say ... "hey man ... play some Led Zeppelin ... " and if you didn't they swore at you and hung up and next morning your manager would say something!

It stopped being about the music at that time ... it became about the hit and the money ... and when the major companies signed a huge distribution deal, so they could pay Mick millions to ride a 20ft dick on the stage and give Led Zeppelin 50 million ... the rest of the music out there ... got buried even more!

Prog, like any other art out there, never faded. Ouor ability, and I state DESIRE, to stay with something else, ended ... I never lost the ability to not appreciate Peter Hammill ... but to many folks that was the most fudged up 4/4 they ever heard! It wasn't even that!

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com

Polymorphia View Drop Down

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Posted: November 21 2012 at 14:57

richardh wrote:

I agree it wasn't really that successful. Refer to my first paragraph (Many audiences...) to verify. Note, however, that in the last point I am referring to popularity relative to symph-prog's popularity today. Also, I'm using "symph-prog" as synecdoche for prog with concept albums and long epics. This would also include Jethro Tull, Pink Floyd, and many others. As far as pop music, I was referring to the specific brand of pop we have today that started to gain popularity in the 80s. I totally agree that the 70s had some bad pop music (it had some bad prog music too). I also believe both the 70s and today had/have some great pop and prog music, and, in my opinion, we have a lot more than just Muse to do with! Wink

And while there is no Yes to "balance it out," I'm not sure I want another Yes (though they are one my very favorites). The epics and concept albums are cool and all (if done well), but I'm glad musicians are doing something else. Music would not "progress" if they didn't! Wink

Dean

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Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: November 21 2012 at 15:13

Surrealist wrote:

Any why is the general public so in love with 4x4 time signatures when that is only ONE of so many options?

4x4 is not a time signature. 4x4 means a kick on every beat, or '4 to the floor' in the vernacular - it does not mean a 4/4 time signature - you can have a tune in 4/4 time signature that does not have a 4x4 beat, and a tune in a 12/8 time signature that does.

In fact you can over-lay a 4/4 time signature (and thus a 4x4 beat) over anything - if it resolves within the bar it is a Polyrhythm and if it resolves over the course of several bars it is a Polymeter.

Most ofev eryt hing ever writ tena bout time sign atur esin prog isco mple tely irrel evan t,an yone whos itsl iste ning toap iece ofmu sicc ount ingo utti mesi gnat ures need stog etad iffe rent hobb y,or perh apsa life.

Edited by Dean - November 21 2012 at 15:14

What?

Polymorphia View Drop Down

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Posted: November 21 2012 at 15:25

Dean wrote:

Does counting hypothetical time-signature in sentences count (must be indo-prog with all those additive rhythms!)? Come to think of it, time signature in music is only hypothetical.

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