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rogerthat 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
 Posted: November 17 2012 at 00:02 |
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The bands didn't fade. The sound did because, well, it was never one sound in the first place and there was no new line of bands to play in exactly the same style (why would there be, though). Marillion did take over from Genesis in a manner of speaking but their style certainly had plenty of 80s elements and influences from some of Genesis's contemporaries. They broke through with Misplaced Childhood but soon parted ways with Fish and that was that. As for Yes or Genesis, the fans may or may not have tired of their 70s sound (excuse my pithy tone please but I am just a bit tired of constant contemporary prog hammering in this thread) but it would appear that they had run out of ideas as far as that approach goes. Genesis's transformation didn't happen overnight. They always had some pop elements in their music and over a period of time, these began to crowd out the prog elements probably because they couldn't find more and more ways to tweak their prog sound. It must have been especially hard after they lost Hackett. They were faced with either stagnation or reinvention and they chose to reinvent themselves to keep going. Rush didn't necessarily change to become commercial (not any more than they already were, what with their pandering to hard rock tastes  ). They wanted to expand their sound with synths but Geddy just wasn't a particularly good synth player. I for one don't like his synth tones in the 80s too much. As for KC, Discipline didn't help them sell records either. Even if it did, it was helluva ambitious in every way other than structure. I think pinning it down only to commercial compulsions is a bit simplistic. Many of these artists were genuinely excited by the changes in the music scene in the late 70s. They thought of it as a challenge to master these new styles and adapt them to their own sound. These might be the same musicians who lament the extent of digital intervention in music today but at that time, they looked to the coming electronic age eagerly. Just like the mid-60s, a plethora of new genres took root from the late 70s to well into the 80s. If there was some such wave in rock today, we would probably be excited about it as well instead of searching for inspiring music from the archives of the past. As it happens, the 'newest' thing in prog rock today is metal and that is already over 20 years old. But a lot of progheads think it is absolutely easy to write a good pop song and therefore find it hard to describe a change from prog to pop as anything other than a sellout. To an extent it was, but most of these musicians being discussed here as 'classic prog' were looking for commercial success from the get-go anyway. John Wetton has said as much on record and Michael Dunford said they thought long pieces were the way to go in the 70s which was probably a mistake in hindsight. In the 70s, the long song format presented an alternative route to commercial success and they chose that over pop music. The strategy reaped rich dividends for Yes while Genesis had to simplify their approach before they could catch up. Some musicians grew attached to the prog approach while others didn't and changed as the music changed. If you really want an example of an uncompromisingly ambitious, daring musician who was interested almost exclusively in all things complex, Frank Zappa is a much better bet than Yes or Genesis or Gentle Giant. Edited by rogerthat - November 17 2012 at 00:04 |
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7951 |
Posted: November 17 2012 at 00:56 |
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I appreciate the recent posts from Moshkito, Toddler and cstack3. So, to re-iterate cstack's question, when did classic Prog fade? I was presuming 1977/1978. Dean and Rogerthat were presuming 1975 apparently for qualitative and stylistic musical reasons (which I have great sympathy for) and perhaps because band break ups or key departures. The idea was that players and listeners grew tired of it. It was no longer commercially viable, so it faded away. This flies in the face of some very successful output in the late seventies; Frank Zappa's Sheikh Yer Bouti, Genesis' Trick of the Tail, Wind & Wuthering, and Floyd' Wish You Were Here and the Wall (and quite a bit of jazz-rock fusion, as Cstack3 pointed out). These were still Prog and from classic bands. These successes support my contention that disinterest in Prog in the music industry was in well in advance of disinterest from listeners. It faded because the music industry steered it in a different direction. The 80s that followed were well known for corporate stranglehold.
It could be objected that Zappa and Floyd were not classic Prog in the sense that they were not symphonic Prog and so are not what is meant by classic Prog. So 1975, then, would have been the year in which Symphonic Prog faded by and large (except for Genesis, which was still doing Symphonic Prog up to 1978, also Nektar did Recycled in 1975 and did not go a more commercial route until 1977 with Magic is a Child. Magic is a Child incidentally was not well supported by its label). Maybe there was some disinterest arising on the musicians' side with all the break ups and departures. The quotes I produced earlier from Glyn Havard and Jon Field of Jade Warrior testify to lack of support from their record company as early as 1973 and the competition that is blamed is not Punk Rock but Glam Rock. This makes me wonder whether Prog ever really had the support of the music industry. It seems to me that all the bands that were successful had some of the characteristics of Glam Rock. Prog bands remaining underground did not fit well into the glam rock mold. Later on in 1975, I think Punk did not really replace Prog. It replaced Glam, and as Dean said, Prog just continued underground. |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: November 17 2012 at 01:30 |
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Trick of the tail and Wind of Wuthering are already simplified in comparison to Gabriel-Genesis. The latter, especially, already has the mushy Your own special way, which foretells their future direction. It was not a drastic change but a gradual one. I remember Dean had written a long post about the change in approach of some of these bands that had acquired popularity around 1975. Both mentioned PF albums produced a classic rock staple /evergreen hit each - Wish you were here and Another Brick in the wall pt2. The Wall also absorbs a lot of contemporaneous influences and has the unmistakable stamp of Bob Ezrin over it. It is prog only in concept; musically it is made up of many short rock songs, some of which, like Mother and Comfortably Numb, have joined ABITW as rock staples. If Mother was on a Bob Dylan album, would you still call it prog? And the jazz rock being played at the tail end of the 70s was quite different from that at the beginning. This discussion is about the classic prog sound, not prog. Prog didn't go anywhere but those who adapted fared better, commercially speaking.
Even if I don't buy this argument, I nevertheless have to point out if they did, I can imagine albums like TFTO and Works pushing them in that direction. TFTO's success was based heavily on pre-orders; another album of such excessive proportions may not have fared well and if the labels decided to gently pat these bands on the back to pare down their ambition, it would not be entirely unjustified or too far in advance of public taste.
It was always the bands with a more accessible sound that got the support of the music industry. The labels bear the risk of producing, distributing and promoting albums; they wouldn't want to bet on something that wouldn't stand much of a chance of commercial success. How much label support did the likes of Henry Cow or Art Bears get in comparison to ELP or Yes even in the 70s? Interestingly enough, in some previous heated neo prog v/s RIO fan wars on this board, bands like Henry Cow, Magma or Art Zoyd were characterised as pretentious by some people. There is always a threshold of ambition that's too far for some people and not at all for some others. The 70s favoured a certain kind of prog, riding on the coattails of 60s psychedelia. By the end of the 70s, it had not only run its course, other styles had begun to capture the fancy of the audience. Metal was not yet so big at the beginning of the 70s and even metal bands like Sabbath or Purple played long jams live. But by the end of the 70s, it was much bigger and in the 80s it exploded. To refer to Dean's comment about youngsters preferring the music of their own time, metal was the new music while prog was the music of the older generation. Edited by rogerthat - November 17 2012 at 04:46 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: November 17 2012 at 06:58 |
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I don't recall presuming that 1975 was a pivotal point but I've written so much on this subject in so many different threads it possible that I could have indicated something along those lines. Certainly all the albums you've mentioned here (as Roger has pointed out) mark a change away from the flavour of Prog that preceded them, but you can pick any year and any number of successful Prog albums and come to a similar conclusion. What happened in 1973 was different kind of Prog to what was happening in 1971 for example. Delve deep enough through forum threads and you'll find people citing Wind & Wuthering as the beginnings of Neo Prog and others who consider Wish You Were Here to be a classic rock album and not Prog at all.
I'm not of the camp that sees Symphonic Prog as the epitome of classic Prog. Yes, Genesis and ELP are not the core Prog bands for me for that down-plays the importance of King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Van der Graaf Generator, Gentle Giant, the whole Canterbury Scene, Jethro Tull, Hawkwind, Amon Duul, etc. etc.
One Symphonic Prog band that started in 1975 and released their first album in 1976 was The Enid. While they attracted a sizable (and very loyal) following, commercial success on the scale of Yes, ELP and Genesis eluded them even then despite being signed to two major record labels.
I have said this many times, you have to look at who bought what and when - different demographics, different age-ranges and different times. The industry, the music press and the radio DJ's had to appeal to the current record buyers: the volte-face of UK radio people like John Peel, Kid Jensen, Johnny Walker and Annie Nightingale is indicative of that, those four built their celebrity careers supporting Prog and then jumped ship to support the latest trend (following rather than setting if truth be told).
Prog had the support of the music industry for a while - in the early 70s independant labels adopted the Prog banner - Island, Virgin and Charisma being the most successful of those, but the majors like Atlantic, Polydor, EMI, UA and Decca also had Prog bands and Progressive Rock imprint labels on their rosta such as Deram, Harvest, Liberty and later band imprint labels like Threshold, Mantecore (and prog-related imprints like Swansong & Purple) are evidence of the music industry supporting the cause. It is worth remembering that each of those labels had one or two notable successful bands and a lot of less successful ones and while the amortised costs involved may result in a profit, the profits are higher without the less successful bands. The music industry is a for-profit business just like any other. Seeing A&M, EMI and Virgin scramble to sign the Sex Pistols in 1976 is evidence of that, and now hearing John Lydon's diatribe on the music industry (practically echoing Robert Fripp), shows that nothing changes:
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: November 17 2012 at 07:45 |
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In another thread, Surrealist cited some research from Bristol University on the nature of hit Pop music and how it has changed over the decades. One curious discovery hidden in that research is the observation that Pop music became more complex (in terms of harmony and rhythm) through the 80s and 90s, so while some here decry the shift in Prog away from the complexities of its former years you could say that the legacy of that reached a wider audience not only as Prog bands adopted a more commercial style, but also as (New Wave) Pop artists saw beyond the three-chord trick into the realm that Prog opened-up. Mixed meters, complex and irrational time signatures, polyrythmns and polymeters in Prog are overstated to a huge degree - most Prog stays comfortably within the bounds of simple and compound time signatures that can be found in most other forms of music, switching between 4/4 and 3/4 isn't the same as playing in 7/4.
Much of the rythmic complexity in Prog comes from the melody line, not the rythmn. In the late 70s and 80s Rutherford and Banks were still writing melodies in the same way they had in the early to mid 70s, Collin's just simplfied them by adding or removing a beat or two, so for example, a complex 13/8 time signature became a simple compond time signature of 12/8 that could be played as 3+3+3+3 or 4+4+4 and that becomes more "radio friendly" and accessable - the song is now bobbling along in a 12/8 time signature but the beat can be stressed in groups of 4 that can interpretted as a dance-able common time signature (contrast that with the famous Apocalypse in 9/8 - while the rythmn is in 9/8 (3+2+4) the melody continues as 4/4, so while that is technically a polymeter, Collins is not drumming in polymeters (or polyrythmns)).
Edited by Dean - November 17 2012 at 07:57 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: November 17 2012 at 07:58 |
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The quintessential New Wave riff by itself is more complicated than what used to be characterised as a rock riff in the 60s and 70s. The trend I have seen in these discussions is people will pick on one band they don't like, usually Duran Duran if it's New Wave, and bash the entire genre. But The Police and Rush also embraced New Wave, as did post-punk band Siouxsie and the Banshees. Spellbound is definitely one of my favourite riffs. I also agree with the second para. As an Indian, I don't find rhythmic complexity in prog, especially the classic prog, all that involved because even popular music in our tradition is often written in 7/8. Being that percussion instruments in India are played with the fingers rather than sticks, they are more dextrous and accommodate shifting meters more easily. What I do find interesting in prog, rather, is melodic/harmonic changes. That again was never the sole preserve of prog but that was something prog rock bands that went pop had to let go. This too seems to have happened gradually. In the case of Genesis, by Wind and Wuthering, the brilliant surprises and their satisfactory resolution of a Dancing with the Moonlit Knight was already becoming a thing of the past and it was not such a bad idea to cut down some flab from compositions that were getting a bit predictable. Edited by rogerthat - November 17 2012 at 08:05 |
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geneyesontle
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 14 2012 Location: Quebec Status: Offline Points: 1266 |
Posted: November 17 2012 at 11:51 |
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Okay, maybe I should not say that. But I still think that I don't like disco. Give me James Brown any time, REAL funk.
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Poseidon wants to Acquire the Taste of the Fragile Lamb
- Derek Adrian Gabriel Anderson, singer of the band Geneyesontle |
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
Posted: November 17 2012 at 12:12 |
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^ I didn't know Jimmy Brown used to make funk.
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geneyesontle
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 14 2012 Location: Quebec Status: Offline Points: 1266 |
Posted: November 17 2012 at 14:01 |
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^
Take me to the bridge. Edited by geneyesontle - November 17 2012 at 14:03 |
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Poseidon wants to Acquire the Taste of the Fragile Lamb
- Derek Adrian Gabriel Anderson, singer of the band Geneyesontle |
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Surrealist
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 12 2012 Location: Squonk Status: Offline Points: 232 |
Posted: November 17 2012 at 14:55 |
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In the 70's, the classic prog bands always gave us fans something amazing with each new album. If they didn't they would lose us.
I'll use Rush as an example. I didn't really get into Rush until 2112. I knew they were a hard rock band and had a radio hit or two on the FM Rock stations like "Fly by Night" but that never got me to buy their albums. I remember when 2112 hit the stores.. and it was all the rage. This 20 minute opus, complex and heavy, but with a dynamic soft interlude in the middle... it told a timeless story warning of the evils of the coming technology, which in hindsight has been all too prophetic, and it still unraveling much to my distaste as most of you know.. but back to topic here. Then on the flip side, we get "A Passage to Bangkok" and we know they love to burn an exotic joint just like we do. Peart's drumming, the great bass work, heavy yet melodic guitar solos.. lots of melody, but complex also. No one sang like Geddy, like it or not. So then they release the Live Album.. and it exposed me to their earlier stuff, so I bought those albums too. "All the World's a Stage" was so full of energy, so real, so natural sounding, bombastic, and felt so humanly honest. Then we get "A Farewell to Kings" They definitely took it up an notch or two adding a more spacey psychedelic sound into the tight playing and with the lyrical journey through Xanadu and Cygnus X1, what more could you ask for. It was almost a joke that "Closer to the Heart" became their biggest radio hit to date, because that song was so far from what the band was about at that time.. we just all had a chuckle thinking people would go buy that record then hear Cygnus! No Rush fan was disappointed with AFTK as a follow up to 2112. So then we get "Hemispheres".. and if the title track wasn't enough to get you to set up a Rush alter on your nightstand, the instrumental La Villa Strangiato certainly did. It was and to me still is the most tastefully done piece of instrumental rock virtuosity even recorded. It is an absolutely beautiful compelling piece of music, and Lifeson's solo still sends chills down my spine. Nothing any neo prog guitarist has even been able to do... sorry DT, but you guys are not even in the ball park. Hemispheres, more great lyrics, The Trees, social unrest, a fortelling of the fall of communism.. we could feel this stuff coming.. the music was always with a message, or fantasy, it took us somehwere in our heads... it was not just chops and solos. Then Permanent Waves. Now remember, this is still the analog age and before bands could digitally fix and tighten their music on a f&$*#&#ing computer screen.. good lord.. don't you guys get it? Permanent Waves... another amazing record.. the epic "Natural Science" just epic prog, and Freewill with Geddy's amazing bass solo, and Jacob Ladder which created "Avatar" imagery in your head long before MTV, and another Prog rock anthem on the radio with "Spirit of Radio". This record was recorded so well.. the band was so tight and polished and these songs just blended great songwriting with virtuostic playing, meaningful and compelling lyrics.. I didn't think it could get better. Next up.. "Moving Pictures".. need one say more? No doubt their greatest album to this day. While it lacked a big magnum opus... the songs are just amazing.. and hearing your favorite band on the radio playing so tastefully, yet then breaking into these odd metered breaks for the solos such as in Tom Sawyer, and Red Barchetta and Limelight showes us fans that they were NOT selling out.. and just giving us great songs, great playing, and another off the hook instrumental YYZ.. and they have this devoted Prog following that is so strong.. and now they have all these rock fans checking them out seriously.. and my girlfriend is digging Rush and things could not get better. Then we get Signals.. and this was the first album where I was disappointed to say the least. There was nothing new here. No epics.. the songwriting did not go to another level. This was like Zeppelin releasing "In through the Out Door" Over the next decade, I would still go see them live because I knew they would still play a lot of the great stuff.. But I see no argument that anything they ever released again was more sophisticated or progressive than what had come before. I would give "Grace Under Pressure" a blue ribbon for "arsty" but not for furthering of the great stuff that came before. So while they may have become more "arsty" it wasn't a contiuation of delvering world class Prog. So the same arguments could be made for Genesis, Yes, Tull. I would however say that Crimson kept delivering the goods, and progressing in a very Prog way right up through their last release a few years back. |
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hobocamp
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 17 2010 Location: Fine Furniture Status: Offline Points: 525 |
Posted: November 17 2012 at 19:44 |
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Not only did it fade, it shrunk.
Could have been washed in hot water and dried on high heat... Edited by hobocamp - November 17 2012 at 19:45 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: November 17 2012 at 20:18 |
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I am curious now...if that is your view about Signals, in what way does Farewell to the kings represent a new level from 2112 to you? It is just more consistent overall but just doesn't step far outside ideas explored in 2112 and to that extent is the most disappointing of their 'classics'. Signals at least explores synths much more than in any previous Rush album and is fresh, even if somebody like you might characterise such a direction as 'invalid'.
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Surrealist
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 12 2012 Location: Squonk Status: Offline Points: 232 |
Posted: November 18 2012 at 03:53 |
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I think the playing of all the guys is much more creative and interesting than 2112 which is pretty driving on the downbeat for the most part. FWTK not only explored more odd time signatures but added a fresh sonic palate with lots of new sounds, and Geddy was really focusing on playing more on the Taurus Bass Pedals. Geddy was playing more keys but with his feet while playing bass and singing of course. Great stuff. I think FWTK was a big step up from 2112 on every level.
I don't agree that Signals was the introduction of snyths in Rush. If anything it was just more synths and less of everything else... the good things... less of the good things or of what they did best. They lost a lot of fans with Signals.. the real Rush prog fans.. lots of my friends were very disappointed and just didn't know what to do. We felt like we lost our band... it was horrible at the time. They took the Prog out of it.. and replaced it with something much less interesting. If they wanted Synths, they should have added a 4th member.. brought in Rick Wakeman or Keith Emerson and added a player who was on their level. I don't want to hear Geddy playing keyboards anymore than I want to hear Ed Van Halen playing them. |
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HarbouringTheSoul
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 21 2010 Status: Offline Points: 1199 |
Posted: November 18 2012 at 08:51 |
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Excuse me! I'm trying to find the bridge! Has anybody seen the bridge? I ain't seen the bridge! Where's that confounded bridge? |
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 23 2005 Location: Caerdydd Status: Offline Points: 32995 |
Posted: November 18 2012 at 09:13 |
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Nope
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HolyMoly
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin Joined: April 01 2009 Location: Atlanta Status: Offline Points: 26138 |
Posted: November 18 2012 at 09:14 |
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My other avatar is a Porsche
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased. -Kehlog Albran |
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Surrealist
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 12 2012 Location: Squonk Status: Offline Points: 232 |
Posted: November 18 2012 at 22:31 |
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But they wouldn't have lost Hackett if they appreciated him more. Voyage of the Acolyte could have been the next Genesis album... and would have been much better. They should have made more double albums. "Voyage of Duke the Acolyte"
YES should have made "Going for the Tormato Drama" That would have kept that band together. |
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7951 |
Posted: November 18 2012 at 22:36 |
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
Posted: November 18 2012 at 23:55 |
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Edited by Dayvenkirq - November 18 2012 at 23:59 |
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru Joined: February 02 2004 Location: South England Status: Offline Points: 14693 |
Posted: November 19 2012 at 06:36 |
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Good one... 
You're serious? 
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
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Why classic prog faded?
Topic Options
Neelus wrote:
k) and punk mouvements came in and sold even more records. This is very simple and accesible music that can be more anthemic than prog. But the differences from these is that punk was more influental than disco, and disco faded away very quickly. Punk stayed, because it was a revolution at the time.