Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - the importance of analog sound in prog
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic Closedthe importance of analog sound in prog
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1415161718 38>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Surrealist View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 12 2012
Location: Squonk
Status: Offline
Points: 232 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2012 at 13:21
Quote
 
All Analogue to Digital converters and all Digital to Analogue converters have transfer characteristics, just as every amplifier and every speaker has a transfer characteristic. We know what these are and we can measure them. A professional studio quality ADC that converts the audio signal into a series of data-words has a linearity that is measure in fractions of an LSB, this we can convert into an ideal THD value and we can compare that to the actual THD value we can measure from the device: professional audio ADC have ideal THD values approaching -150dB which when combined with the actual measured noise-floor give measurable values in the order of -87dB to -105dB - there is nothing secretive or hidden about those figures - all manufacturers publish them and anyone with the right equipment can measure them. And then design engineers put those ADCs into pcbs that will either become outboard studio quality samplers or into PC or MAC sound-cards that aren't quite so studio quality and the overall performance drops off a little more because of the quality of the analogue signal the feeds into them isn't quite as clean and good as it could be because the preamplifers aren't as good and the environment of the PC or MAC isn't as clean as the one in the outboard ADC box. And again there is nothing secretive or hidden about that. The degradations are in the analogue domain so they will affect the audio - this is inescapable.
 


Thanks for taking the time to discuss this stuff.  I do appreciate it even though I am sure you are tired of my incessant questioning.  I think maybe we are getting somewhere... and I would like to hear your thoughts on these converters and how they vary from one sound card or hardware interface to another.  

If two machines claim the same specs... why would they sound so different?  If it is just simply 1's and 0's.. then what are these characteristics you mention?  What are the specs that are going to scientifically show what these characteristic differences would be? 

Early on we were recording on a blackface Alesis Adat.  Then we recorded on a PreSonus Firepod.
The Firepod claims 24-bit/96kHz.

 
 
 ADAT:
 

FIREPOD:



I have recorded on both systems.  The ADAT uses SVHS tapes as transport.  The Firepod connects right to our Mac via Firewire cable and can load into various digital editing programs. 

These are very typical set ups for smaller studios, home studios and the majority of Prog indie releases are being recorded this way.  Most bands don't have access to $100,000 high end ditigal studios. 

I know you will label statements that I make as just subjective.. but these ADATs and FiREPODS  SOUND LIKE CRAP!!!!

I am sure high end digital studios sound much better.  What kind of specs are the big boys using in the digital world that are getting an acceptable sound compared to the entry level stuff mentioned above?
Back to Top
progbethyname View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 30 2012
Location: HiFi Headmania
Status: Offline
Points: 7868 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2012 at 13:22
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Also I would be curious to know what type of sound works for you?? I'm a dynamic man myself with a little extra bass boost. Also, when I pair my I pod up to my amp I always select the FLAT sound Equalization because I feel it gives the best balance and clarity to whatever type of music I'm listening to, especially prog/electronic. Balancing the lows-mids-highs of the sound spectrum to an equal FLAT line I feel works very well with the headphones I have as well. What do you prefer when your having a listening experience with your favourites??

I have learnt that flat response is the best compromise. Sometimes you hear a recording that feels like it needs a bit of boost or cut here and there and that's fine, but whatever setting works for that will sound terrible on the next album you play, so you tweek the controls again and then the next one sounds a little off and so on. It's easier to leave them alone and accept what the producer wanted you to hear. Of course there is always the possibility that the producer mixed the album with the bass boosted on his play-back system so when you get to hear his final mix played through your system with the controls levelled it's all a bit meh...


Yes yes. Very true. You do have have to do a bit of tinkering Here and there. I do have to do that sometimes and I know there is no universal sound setting that will make what ever you are listening to, the bees knees. ;) and funny that you mention the extra bass in some recordings because just last night I was listening to REDEMPTION's latest effort 'THIS MORTAL COIL' and I could immediately Here that something was off in this recording by Neil Kernon and Alan Douches(yes that is his real name) anyway, it sounded so muffled and thats because the bass was far too 'boosted' for my liking. Sound was less bright then what I'm used to and I didn't here much diversity in the back round thus limiting sound seperation, meaning it did not sound channeled off correctly. So long story short I had to fix that by choosing a completely different setting than I normally use. It had to be way brighter. Meanwhile I thought the album wasn't their strongest effort. So I don't highly recommend that one.
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
Back to Top
Snow Dog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2012 at 13:38
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:


Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

I like smiley face



right back ya my friend.

You said you like a flat line.


FLAT EQ setting generally brings out the most clarity in your music because your not making things like trebal and bass out of whack or extremely out of balance. If you have too much treble the sound will sound too bright and crispy. If you have too much bass, sound usually tends to be very muffled and you don't get the full picture when you do that. Anyway, if you have quality sound products like a solid amp and incredible headphones let them do their job. If ya mess around with the equalization you'll screw things up a lot, but then again it all depends on what type of music your listening to. 

I don't care...I prefer smiley face.
Back to Top
progbethyname View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 30 2012
Location: HiFi Headmania
Status: Offline
Points: 7868 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2012 at 14:25
^ sometimes you gotta hammer home a good point.
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
Back to Top
Snow Dog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2012 at 14:29
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

^ sometimes you gotta hammer home a good point.

Flat line = no equalisation  at all...so turn it off.
Back to Top
Catcher10 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17973 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2012 at 14:32
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:


[QUOTE=ProgShine]
Something came to my mind just now and I had to come back here to ask. To all of you.Let's say you're on your mom's house, auntie, neighbour, store, supermarket, whatever. One of your favorite songs/band starts to play on the radio or in the tv, a normal tv.You can't enjoy yourself and the moment with your favorite song because the audio is inferior??

Agreed. This is true. It will take away from the pleasure instantly. I'd feel like I'm literally missing out on what could and should be experienced in terms of audio quality. Quality audio is everything! And yes it's expensive, but in most cases incredibly worth it. Just watch what you buy in regards to amps and other players. Sound can be subjective



[
 
What are you doing?? Confused None of what is above has anything to do with me..Please read the instructions on how to use Quote
Back to Top
progbethyname View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 30 2012
Location: HiFi Headmania
Status: Offline
Points: 7868 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2012 at 14:45
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:


Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

^ sometimes you gotta hammer home a good point.

Flat line = no equalisation  at all...so turn it off.


Lol. I wish it were that simple, but you use the FLAT setting as the base, then start tinkering. Never use any of the other eq presets then start to tinker. That's what i mean. I know your being funny, but seriously try it? You'll appreciate your favourites more if you find the right sound setting but something tells me you already have and that you are just having a go at me.
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
Back to Top
Catcher10 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17973 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2012 at 15:08
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

 


If two machines claim the same specs... why would they sound so different?  If it is just simply 1's and 0's.. then what are these characteristics you mention?  What are the specs that are going to scientifically show what these characteristic differences would be?  

 
 
This thinking was touched on by me and I did not do a good job of explaining myself earlier in this thread. Dean was explaining how CD drives, motors and transport trays have no affect on sound, when I was saying that they do when looking at a $90 CDP and a $500 CDP.....The build quality and materials do play a part in what actually comes out of the speakers, including any unwanted noise.
 
I can agree that all Wolfson, Burr-Brown or Cirrus Logic DACs should sound the same based on paper/bench  specs......but when all the components and pcs are put together and you press play, for some reason they do not. I have heard CDP and Ext DACs with these brand dac and usually the same model numbers and there is a different sound.....From an audio perspective there is a difference......
 
Using the same type of gasoline in two different 4-cylinder cars will always yield you two different MPG or Km/L figures....What goes in is not always the same as what comes out.
 
I don't listen to 0 and 1......I hear the music my components make from these 0 and 1's, and generally people will buy what sounds best to them up to a price point.....And the same goes for a turntable and the components for that, buy what sounds best to you because not all preamps and MM cartridges sound the same.....
 
Its about the whole package.....and for me analog brings that whole musical package to my ears in a better way. Again, a lot of us feel digital is the best media......I just feel it is lacking in more ways than what analog lacks right now.....Maybe one day it will not, at least for me.
 
Here again a great quote by Roine Stolt......
 
"The new album "Banks Of Eden" was recorded with the band playing live in one room in Varispeed studio in January 2012, a recording much like in the old days of classic prog, before computers hit the market and this time with plenty of original 60's and 70's recording equipment, for a true warm analogue vintage sound. "We aimed for the classic big warm vinyl-sound of old records by Queen, Genesis, Zeppelin or Deep Purple," says Stolt.
Back to Top
Catcher10 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17973 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2012 at 15:14
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:


Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

^ sometimes you gotta hammer home a good point.

Flat line = no equalisation  at all...so turn it off.


Lol. I wish it were that simple, but you use the FLAT setting as the base, then start tinkering. Never use any of the other eq presets then start to tinker. That's what i mean. I know your being funny, but seriously try it? You'll appreciate your favourites more if you find the right sound setting but something tells me you already have and that you are just having a go at me.
 
By EQ presets I assume you are talking about the presets in your iPod settings? Or does your amplifier have preset EQ settings??
Back to Top
Snow Dog View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2012 at 15:20
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:


Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

^ sometimes you gotta hammer home a good point.

Flat line = no equalisation  at all...so turn it off.


Lol. I wish it were that simple, but you use the FLAT setting as the base, then start tinkering. Never use any of the other eq presets then start to tinker. That's what i mean. I know your being funny, but seriously try it? You'll appreciate your favourites more if you find the right sound setting but something tells me you already have and that you are just having a go at me.

Stop patronising me. I think I  know how to use an equaliser.Stern Smile
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2012 at 15:38
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

Quote
 
All Analogue to Digital converters and all Digital to Analogue converters have transfer characteristics, just as every amplifier and every speaker has a transfer characteristic. We know what these are and we can measure them. A professional studio quality ADC that converts the audio signal into a series of data-words has a linearity that is measure in fractions of an LSB, this we can convert into an ideal THD value and we can compare that to the actual THD value we can measure from the device: professional audio ADC have ideal THD values approaching -150dB which when combined with the actual measured noise-floor give measurable values in the order of -87dB to -105dB - there is nothing secretive or hidden about those figures - all manufacturers publish them and anyone with the right equipment can measure them. And then design engineers put those ADCs into pcbs that will either become outboard studio quality samplers or into PC or MAC sound-cards that aren't quite so studio quality and the overall performance drops off a little more because of the quality of the analogue signal the feeds into them isn't quite as clean and good as it could be because the preamplifers aren't as good and the environment of the PC or MAC isn't as clean as the one in the outboard ADC box. And again there is nothing secretive or hidden about that. The degradations are in the analogue domain so they will affect the audio - this is inescapable.
 


Thanks for taking the time to discuss this stuff.  I do appreciate it even though I am sure you are tired of my incessant questioning.  I think maybe we are getting somewhere... and I would like to hear your thoughts on these converters and how they vary from one sound card or hardware interface to another.
I've already explained why above. Sorry it was a bit badly written, I had better things to do so didn't bother proof reading it. But since you asked, I'll take another shot at it.
 
In any mixed-signal system (such as a sound-card) there are two domains - an analogue domain and a digital domain. The analogue domain is exactly the same as the analogue domain in a solid state system or a valve/tube system - it amplifies analogue voltage signals - the input with a ¼" jack or XLR socket connects the mic (or guitar or keyboard or analogue mixing desk o/p) to a preamplifier with presets and level controls and perhaps some filtering, it may then go through some analogue switches and some more analogue preamplifiers and perhaps an analogue filter (who knows, I'm generalising a worse case scenario here) - The engineering skills needed to build that analogue subsection of the sound card are exactly the same skills needed to build any analogue amplifier - and they suffer from the same degradations, the same THD and noise problems, the same mains hum/buzz breakthrough and RF pick-up from cell-phones etc etc etc. as any analogue system would, whether that is a solid-state analogue system or a valve/tube analogue system. In the Analogue Domain all things suffer from the same problems no matter what the application is. 
 
That "degraded" analogue signal from the amplifiers, filters and switches in the analogue subsection then goes to the ADC which converts it into bits - your dreaded 1s and 0s - and there are further degradations that happen with that conversion, these are not as drastic as those in the analogue subsection, but they exist. For example the linearity of the converter itself is one such degradation - a 24-bit ADC with a linearity error of ½LSB (that's not untypical) is an equivalent THD value of -150dB (or 0.000003%) but this is tiny compared to the degradation of the analogue subsection, so when you see a THD figure on the box of a soundcard or pro audio ADC of (say) 0.003% then that value is almost entirely caused by the analogue subsection and not the actual ADC chip itself. 
 
However, once the signal has been converted into 1s and 0s it is now in the digital domain and no more degradation can occur. Once the data has been converted to a sequence of digital words nothing can change it by accident. (I know digital audiophiles get their boxer's in a bunch over special digital cables and talk about jitter and group delay but [and this is a trade-secret between you and me] they are talking absolute nonsense - if you corrupt that data-stream in anyway it's game over - nothing will convert that back to an analogue signal - in the digital domain it is just as binary as 1s and 0s - it either works or it doesn't). You can now copy and transmit that series of digital words as often as you like to anywhere you like and the data will remain exactly as it was when it left the output of ADC. You can send it to the noisy switching environment of a PC or a MAC safe in the knowledge that it cannot get worse. This is not an easy concept to grasp, especially if your thinking is firmly ingrained in the analogue domain.
 
So degradations do occur in soundcards and pro audio analogue to digital converters, but they happen in the Analogue Domain and since those analogue subsections and amplifiers are no different to the analogue amplifiers in an analogue mixer or amplifier then they will be different from one design to the next, one model to the next and one manufacturer to the next. If you buy one of these "on spec" without auditioning it first then more fool you.
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


If two machines claim the same specs... why would they sound so different?  If it is just simply 1's and 0's.. then what are these characteristics you mention?  What are the specs that are going to scientifically show what these characteristic differences would be? 
These "machines" don't have the same specs, nor do they claim to have the same specs, not even close. They will sound different. I'm not sure what you are trying to prove here.
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


Early on we were recording on a blackface Alesis Adat.  Then we recorded on a PreSonus Firepod.
The Firepod claims 24-bit/96kHz.

 
 
 ADAT:
 

FIREPOD:



I have recorded on both systems.  The ADAT uses SVHS tapes as transport.  The Firepod connects right to our Mac via Firewire cable and can load into various digital editing programs. 
And? I'm not sure what you are trying to prove here.

Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


These are very typical set ups for smaller studios, home studios and the majority of Prog indie releases are being recorded this way.  Most bands don't have access to $100,000 high end ditigal studios. 
Most bands don't have accress to $100,000 high end analogue studios either. I'm not sure what you are trying to prove here.
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


I know you will label statements that I make as just subjective.. but these ADATs and FiREPODS  SOUND LIKE CRAP!!!!
Ah... I see. That's good to know - I'll avoid both of those then.  I'm not sure what you are trying to prove here.
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


I am sure high end digital studios sound much better.  What kind of specs are the big boys using in the digital world that are getting an acceptable sound compared to the entry level stuff mentioned above?
I don't know, why don't you ask them.  I'm not sure what you are trying to prove here.
 
 
 
 
Now, will you answer my question?


Edited by Dean - October 23 2012 at 15:41
What?
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2012 at 15:52
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

 
I can agree that all Wolfson, Burr-Brown or Cirrus Logic DACs should sound the same based on paper/bench  specs......but when all the components and pcs are put together and you press play, for some reason they do not. I have heard CDP and Ext DACs with these brand dac and usually the same model numbers and there is a different sound.....From an audio perspective there is a difference......
 
Everything I said about the ADC in a sound-card or pro audio ADC apply to DAC's too. Even an outboard external DAC has an analogue subsection - it cannot be avoided. At some point in the system you have to convert the incorruptable 1s and 0s into an analogue signal, and once you've done that it's game-on for all the same problems that befall any analogue system. You can put the same Wolfson DAC into two different systems and get a different response because the layout and external components wil not  be the same. You are 100% correct when you said: "I don't listen to  0 and 1......I hear the music my components make from these 0 and 1's..." and it's when the signals get converted into an analogue signal all your problems begin.
 
All digital systems have analogue in them.
What?
Back to Top
Catcher10 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17973 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2012 at 17:16
^ Yes I know.....the "A" in DAC and ADC is ANALOG.....And that is why I think people have a mis-conception about why digital is the best sounding.....to me they are praising analog, and whatever system they have since its analog they are actually hearing.
 
As an audio gear enthusiast, that is what I am looking for......how to better the analog sound that is coming out of my speakers...Whether from a small shiny smooth plastic disc or a 12" black disc with grooves.........And I prefer the latter.
 
Have a great day/evening!
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2012 at 17:27
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

^ Yes I know.....the "A" in DAC and ADC is ANALOG.....And that is why I think people have a mis-conception about why digital is the best sounding.....to me they are praising analog, and whatever system they have since its analog they are actually hearing.
LOL and I guess I don't need to spell out the obvious misconception of people who criticise digital then. Wink
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

 
As an audio gear enthusiast, that is what I am looking for......how to better the analog sound that is coming out of my speakers...Whether from a small shiny smooth plastic disc or a 12" black disc with grooves.........And I prefer the latter.
 
Have a great day/evening!
In 30 minutes the day/evening will be over here, but please enjoy the advantages of living further west than me.
What?
Back to Top
Surrealist View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 12 2012
Location: Squonk
Status: Offline
Points: 232 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2012 at 01:38
So we can agree that all digital input devices have both and analog in .... and an analog out.  So some of these converters, both in and out are of varying quality.  Some do a better job of converting analog sound waves into accurate 1's and 0's.    Then some do a better job of converting 1's and 0's back to analog sound. 

What do you call this difference between a good converter (in or out) and a bad one?  Digital distortion? Colorization? Misrepresentation? 

I can agree that once everything is safely in the digital zone.. everything is "digitally perfect".  But while the input signal into an analog tape machine and a digital recorder are the same (we will assume they are the same source)  the exit out of the digital domain might be more of an issue? 

Can we talk a bit about these digital to analog converters? 
Are some better than others? and if so why? 
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2012 at 01:55
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:

So we can agree that all digital input devices have both and analog in .... and an analog out.  So some of these converters, both in and out are of varying quality.  Some do a better job of converting analog sound waves into accurate 1's and 0's.    Then some do a better job of converting 1's and 0's back to analog sound. 

What do you call this difference between a good converter (in or out) and a bad one?  Digital distortion? Colorization? Misrepresentation? 
I call it analogue distortion or analogue colourisation. I call what you are doing "misrepresentation"
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


I can agree that once everything is safely in the digital zone.. everything is "digitally perfect".  But while the input signal into an analog tape machine and a digital recorder are the same (we will assume they are the same source)  the exit out of the digital domain might be more of an issue? 
Eh? You haven't understood a single word I've written over the past few days have you?
Originally posted by Surrealist Surrealist wrote:


Can we talk a bit about these digital to analog converters? 
Are some better than others? and if so why? 
I have already answered this (twice) - I have no inclination to answer it a third time.
 
 
 
 
 
 
Let's talk about efficiency of valve amplifiers. Geek
What?
Back to Top
Catcher10 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17973 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2012 at 08:57
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

^ Yes I know.....the "A" in DAC and ADC is ANALOG.....And that is why I think people have a mis-conception about why digital is the best sounding.....to me they are praising analog, and whatever system they have since its analog they are actually hearing.
LOL and I guess I don't need to spell out the obvious misconception of people who criticise digital then. Wink
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

 
As an audio gear enthusiast, that is what I am looking for......how to better the analog sound that is coming out of my speakers...Whether from a small shiny smooth plastic disc or a 12" black disc with grooves.........And I prefer the latter.
 
Have a great day/evening!
In 30 minutes the day/evening will be over here, but please enjoy the advantages of living further west than me.
 
Agree on both....
Back to Top
Surrealist View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 12 2012
Location: Squonk
Status: Offline
Points: 232 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2012 at 09:17
Quote Even an outboard external DAC has an analogue subsection - it cannot be avoided. At some point in the system you have to convert the incorruptable 1s and 0s into an analogue signal, and once you've done that it's game-on for all the same problems that befall any analogue system. You can put the same Wolfson DAC into two different systems and get a different response because the layout and external components wil not  be the same. You are 100% correct when you said: "I don't listen to  0 and 1......I hear the music my components make from these 0 and 1's..." and it's when the signals get converted into an analogue signal all your problems begin.


Houston, we have a problem!

The Digital approach toward playing back music is inherently flawed because of the facts you just stated above.  There is no avoiding the problems... at least where the science of it stands today.  Thank you for explaining it.
 
All digital systems have analogue in them.
Back to Top
Dean View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2012 at 09:24
What?
Back to Top
Surrealist View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 12 2012
Location: Squonk
Status: Offline
Points: 232 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2012 at 09:24
Quote design engineers put those ADCs into pcbs that will either become outboard studio quality samplers or into PC or MAC sound-cards that aren't quite so studio quality and the overall performance drops off a little more because of the quality of the analogue signal the feeds into them isn't quite as clean and good as it could be because the preamplifers aren't as good and the environment of the PC or MAC isn't as clean as the one in the outboard ADC box. And again there is nothing secretive or hidden about that. The degradations are in the analogue domain so they will affect the audio - this is inescapable.


The inescapable problem also lies on the input side as well.  Not all conversions are equal, so these disparities are creating the negative experience that analog listeners hear so obviously.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1415161718 38>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.428 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.