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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 12:58 |
Logan wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Logan wrote:
If one disses more mainstream music, and seems to make
it clear that one holds one's tastes as superior to others, than one
could be expected to be called a snob.
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Is it not then equally true that those who diss
non-mainstream music (avant garde, musique concrete, noise, free jazz)
are equally snobbish, since they hold their taste superior to others'?
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Certainly could be, why not? As a generality, yes. Depends a bit upon how equal the disses are, if you know what I mean. I've seen people who have called those types of music inane garbage, which is very snobby. Or called it non-music in a similar way to how some people call abstract art non-art.
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Excellent. Now I have a comeback to use the next time someone attacks Metal Machine Music.
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HolyMoly
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin
Joined: April 01 2009
Location: Atlanta
Status: Offline
Points: 26138
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 13:04 |
We Metal Machine Music fans gotta stick together.
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My other avatar is a Porsche
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
-Kehlog Albran
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 30 2012
Location: HiFi Headmania
Status: Offline
Points: 7850
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 13:27 |
HolyMoly wrote:
We Metal Machine Music fans gotta stick together.
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When you say METAL MACHINE do you mean Industrail sounding metal like FEAR FACTORYor something? Not sure
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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presdoug
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8649
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 13:37 |
If you happen to have discerning tastes, so be it! Accusations of music snobbery, prog or otherwise, are usually leveled at people who have delved into music with a lot of depth, and leveled by people that haven't. As has been pointed out, there is no law about what you can be into or not, in music.
And then there is the old "classical music listeners are snobs", which is a worn out cliche, and ridiculous, really
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 13:42 |
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menawati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 26 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 293
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 14:17 |
presdoug wrote:
And then there is the old "classical music listeners are snobs", which is a worn out cliche, and ridiculous, really
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In my experience its the other way round these days. A lot of metal fans who love dark moods and riffs and solos would find much to love in some classical music but they don't want to listen simply bcos its classical. Some metals fans I've thrown stuff like 'Night on a Bare Mountain' or some of the crazy solo violin Paganini stuff or some really dark Wagner have actually said they never knew what they were missing and love a lot of classical now.
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They flutter behind you your possible pasts,
Some bright-eyed and crazy, some frightened and lost.
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Man With Hat
Collaborator
Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team
Joined: March 12 2005
Location: Neurotica
Status: Offline
Points: 166178
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 14:22 |
Nothing wrong with being a prog snob.
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Online
Points: 28272
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 14:57 |
Inverted snobbery is just as bad.ie Simple is better or the only good musicians are bad musicians.
I believe in listening to bands who can play to a high level and artists who have ideas and preferably write/compose their own music. As someone said nothing wrong with Abba. However why I should I worry why about what others think anyway?
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 30 2012
Location: HiFi Headmania
Status: Offline
Points: 7850
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 15:02 |
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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HarbouringTheSoul
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 21 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 1199
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 17:18 |
The Shaggs are easy listening compared to Metal Machine Music.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 21:54 |
menawati wrote:
Logan wrote:
Did he call a snob just because you mentioned what you liked, or was it after you mentioned that the music he listens to bores you, and that you would never choose to buy it?
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I told him I'd heard all that stuff before in other music and that it bores me because it is totally unchallenging. That's when he said I was a music snob. I suppose that is acting a bit like a snob but it was the truth. |
If those are the exact words you used, it is not surprising he would call you a snob. What's boring for you may not be for him. I agree with Logan; I generally avoid criticising somebody else's music in a one to one conversation, I would just say that I don't like it and leave it at that.
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Ambient Hurricanes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 25 2011
Location: internet
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Points: 2549
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 22:34 |
I think it's ridiculous that someone should be called a snob for trying to make any sort of objective judgement about music. You can have an opinion that one band or album or song is objectively better than another without considering yourself the ultimate arbitrator of taste, just as you can have a political opinion without considering yourself the ultimate authority on political science. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and some are more true than others. You're not a snob if you think prog music is generally better than pop, nor are you a snob if you think that pop is generally better than prog. It's when people make sweeping generalizations, confine themselves to a single genre, ridicule others for their tastes, or refuse to acknowledge positive aspects of (in their opinion) subpar music that snobbery comes into play.
So...
Progressive rock is generally artistically superior to pop music because it bypasses crass commercialism, incorporates more interesting melodies, harmonies, and rhythms, and appeals to the deeper emotions of the heart rather than mere physical desires. (legitimate opinion)
All prog is amazing and all pop music sucks because it's simple and stupid and mass produced and all of the songs are about sex and drugs (snobbery)
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I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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menawati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 26 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 293
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 22:42 |
rogerthat wrote:
menawati wrote:
Logan wrote:
Did he call a snob just because you mentioned what you liked, or was it after you mentioned that the music he listens to bores you, and that you would never choose to buy it?
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I told him I'd heard all that stuff before in other music and that it bores me because it is totally unchallenging. That's when he said I was a music snob. I suppose that is acting a bit like a snob but it was the truth. |
If those are the exact words you used, it is not surprising he would call you a snob. What's boring for you may not be for him. I agree with Logan; I generally avoid criticising somebody else's music in a one to one conversation, I would just say that I don't like it and leave it at that.
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But it's boring for me because I've heard much more music than him. That stuff would not be boring for me if I hadn't heard the same old thing loads of times in heaps of popular music he's never heard of. I think it's ok to say something is objectively unchallenging and has been all done before.
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They flutter behind you your possible pasts,
Some bright-eyed and crazy, some frightened and lost.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 22:43 |
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
You can have an opinion that one band or album or song is objectively better than another without considering yourself the ultimate arbitrator of taste, just as you can have a political opinion without considering yourself the ultimate authority on political science. |
That however would contradict the very notion of objectivity, which implies a statement that has basis in facts. It also implies impartiality, which is extremely difficult in music given that we are usually talking about the music we like. What one can be objective about is specific aspects of music taken in isolation...is one musician more technically accomplished than another....this can be evaluated without necessarily implying that makes the music of the former better than the latter. Music is not the sum total of its characteristics; it is a medium of expression. Every composition is like a living, breathing entity that presents, or hopes to present, the listener with an experience that is distinct. Music is born out of a composer's thoughts and goals and often takes shape spontaneously. It is difficult to compare unless both compositions can be reasonably assumed to serve the same need (which more or less rules out comparing compositions of different artists). I don't think it is snobbish to say one genre is better than the other as long as we recognize that it is a subjective statement that reflects our experiences in music. Therefore, it does not make the person who disagrees with such a statement wrong either.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 22:46 |
menawati wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
menawati wrote:
Logan wrote:
Did he call a snob just because you mentioned what you liked, or was it after you mentioned that the music he listens to bores you, and that you would never choose to buy it?
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I told him I'd heard all that stuff before in other music and that it bores me because it is totally unchallenging. That's when he said I was a music snob. I suppose that is acting a bit like a snob but it was the truth. |
If those are the exact words you used, it is not surprising he would call you a snob. What's boring for you may not be for him. I agree with Logan; I generally avoid criticising somebody else's music in a one to one conversation, I would just say that I don't like it and leave it at that.
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But it's boring for me because I've heard much more music than him. That stuff would not be boring for me if I hadn't heard the same old thing loads of times in heaps of popular music he's never heard of. I think it's ok to say something is objectively unchallenging and has been all done before. |
He's not obliged to listen to as much music as you, or the same music as you have. As for ok...eh, anything is ok in a free world but you are probably not going to endear yourself to him with such a comment as it would not sound very polite to him. As far as challenging goes, the notion of 'challenging music' is like a tower without a crest. So when you look down on some music as unchallenging, remember that somebody further up the tower is looking down on you as well...and that's a feeling you may not enjoy when you have to confront it first hand.
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A Person
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2008
Location: __
Status: Offline
Points: 65760
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 22:46 |
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menawati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 26 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 293
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 22:55 |
rogerthat wrote:
He's not obliged to listen to as much music as you, or the same music as you have. As for ok...eh, anything is ok in a free world but you are probably not going to endear yourself to him with such a comment as it would not sound very polite to him. As far as challenging goes, the notion of 'challenging music' is like a tower without a crest. So when you look down on some music as unchallenging, remember that somebody further up the tower is looking down on you as well...and that's a feeling you may not enjoy when you have to confront it first hand.
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Maybe 'challenging' was the wrong word for me to use. I meant more interesting to listen to, more likely to induce some emotion in me, more likely to provide something that's maybe new. As far as someone looking down on me I have no problem with that. Some of the best discoveries I've made in music have been from music snobs looking down on me, scoffing and telling me to listen to X, Y and Z.
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They flutter behind you your possible pasts,
Some bright-eyed and crazy, some frightened and lost.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 23:01 |
menawati wrote:
Maybe 'challenging' was the wrong word for me to use. I meant more interesting to listen to, more likely to induce some emotion in me, more likely to provide something that's maybe new. |
It gets better...interesting is even more subjective than challenging. At least challenging implies complexity and what is more or less complex is more objective.
menawati wrote:
As far as someone looking down on me I have no problem with that. Some of the best discoveries I've made in music have been from music snobs looking down on me, scoffing and telling me to listen to X, Y and Z. |
Well, to close the loop, even if you do not have a problem with a music snob looking down on you, it doesn't preclude somebody from disliking your perceived snobbish behaviour.
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menawati
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 26 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 293
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 23:02 |
Oh well I guess I'm a snob then. Thanks for the interesting discussion anyway roger
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They flutter behind you your possible pasts,
Some bright-eyed and crazy, some frightened and lost.
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: October 23 2012 at 23:12 |
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