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Topic ClosedRomney or Obama (or Third party)
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Poll Question: Which will you be voting for (or, if underage, who do you want to win?
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5 [12.50%]
30 [75.00%]
5 [12.50%]
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kenethlevine View Drop Down
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Points: 8950 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 21:58
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Thanks for posting Ken.

I think "not [being] totally happy with Obama" is a cop out. 

Can you give me a number from my list that you approve of and why?  (bin Laden is not a choice on my list because bin Laden is a red herring in terms of the election- do you believe a man with no military experience suddenly led US military to bin Laden?)

The premise of my post was that Democracts, who criticize Bush, support a President who is not only a lot like Bush, but more so!  So what on my list was good and why?

Sorry Rob, I thought I made it pretty clear why I would vote for Obama by listing the far greater number of differences with Bush than the similarities you list.  Those differences, especially on social issues, are enough for me.  I appreciate your position because I have heard very few on the right compare Obama to Bush, lest their followers consider him a viable alternative to Romney!    I daresay most Republican would rather portray him as weak-kneed while he has actually been rather tough.  

So let's say for argument's sake that I don't like any of the Bush-league moves you name.  I still would vote for Obama just to keep Romney and the Republicans out, and it's mostly for their disregard for social and environmental issues.   If that argument was good enough for you with one of the other commenters, then it should be good enough coming from me  Big smile

I will say that I am in favor of the way he is handling the following

4. Oversees a secret kill list.  this has helped weaken Al Qaeda

5. Waged war on Libya without congressional approval (after having won a Nobel Peace Prize).  see my list

6. Sent 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan.   This has helped weaken Al Qaeda

11. Extended the Bush tax cuts.   He has tried to eliminate them for the most rich

15. Obama said it would be a "one term proposition," yet he is running. (See above - he is the best chance to keep the republicans out of office - everybody knows that, Democrats and Republicans alike)
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kenethlevine View Drop Down
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Points: 8950 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 21:59
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I did read your list (twice) and I'm not sure how to better put my response.   It is somewhat nebulous I suppose, but things are not so cut & dry; I doubt many Lefties have stopped losing their sh*t over the Patriot Act - nor many Libertarians, I assume - but it doesn't make good political sense to protest the Patriot Act when they'd much rather have a smart, pro-choice Dem in office who happens to have extended some questionable anti-terrorism bill than a Reaganesque boob who just got finished telling his upperclass supporters how half of us don't want to work toward improving our lives.

this
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 22:00
But the point is that under Bush it was called an egregious and unprecedented breach of civil liberties, and now it's called "some questionable anti-terrorism bill."
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 22:01
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I did read your list (twice) and I'm not sure how to better put my response.   It is somewhat nebulous I suppose, but things are not so cut & dry; I doubt many Lefties have stopped losing their sh*t over the Patriot Act - nor many Libertarians, I assume - but it doesn't make good political sense to protest the Patriot Act when they'd much rather have a smart, pro-choice Dem in office who happens to have extended some questionable anti-terrorism bill than a Reaganesque boob who just got finished telling his upperclass supporters how half of us don't want to work toward improving our lives.


I don't like Romney either.  I'm just more interested in knowing why Obama supporters want to vote for him while they criticize Bush. 

I think it's because most Democrats vote based on lies and party rhetoric.

*gasp*

Did I say something tactless?
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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Points: 65249 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 22:02
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

But the point is that under Bush it was called an egregious and unprecedented breach of civil liberties, and now it's called "some questionable anti-terrorism bill."
No, I called it that, most people probably still think it's egregious and unprecedented. 


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kenethlevine View Drop Down
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Points: 8950 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 22:04
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

I did read your list (twice) and I'm not sure how to better put my response.   It is somewhat nebulous I suppose, but things are not so cut & dry; I doubt many Lefties have stopped losing their sh*t over the Patriot Act - nor many Libertarians, I assume - but it doesn't make good political sense to protest the Patriot Act when they'd much rather have a smart, pro-choice Dem in office who happens to have extended some questionable anti-terrorism bill than a Reaganesque boob who just got finished telling his upperclass supporters how half of us don't want to work toward improving our lives.


I don't like Romney either.  I'm just more interested in knowing why Obama supporters want to vote for him while they criticize Bush. 

I think it's because most Democrats vote based on lies and party rhetoric.

*gasp*

Did I say something tactless?

LOL yes, but please.  Neither party has a monopoly on lies and party rhetoric.  Look at Fox News
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 22:04
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Thanks for posting Ken.

I think "not [being] totally happy with Obama" is a cop out. 

Can you give me a number from my list that you approve of and why?  (bin Laden is not a choice on my list because bin Laden is a red herring in terms of the election- do you believe a man with no military experience suddenly led US military to bin Laden?)

The premise of my post was that Democracts, who criticize Bush, support a President who is not only a lot like Bush, but more so!  So what on my list was good and why?

Sorry Rob, I thought I made it pretty clear why I would vote for Obama by listing the far greater number of differences with Bush than the similarities you list.  Those differences, especially on social issues, are enough for me.  I appreciate your position because I have heard very few on the right compare Obama to Bush, lest their followers consider him a viable alternative to Romney!    I daresay most Republican would rather portray him as weak-kneed while he has actually been rather tough.  

So let's say for argument's sake that I don't like any of the Bush-league moves you name.  I still would vote for Obama just to keep Romney and the Republicans out, and it's mostly for their disregard for social and environmental issues.   If that argument was good enough for you with one of the other commenters, then it should be good enough coming from me  Big smile

I will say that I am in favor of the way he is handling the following

4. Oversees a secret kill list.  this has helped weaken Al Qaeda

5. Waged war on Libya without congressional approval (after having won a Nobel Peace Prize).  see my list

6. Sent 30,000 more troops to Afghanistan.   This has helped weaken Al Qaeda

11. Extended the Bush tax cuts.   He has tried to eliminate them for the most rich

15. Obama said it would be a "one term proposition," yet he is running. (See above - he is the best chance to keep the republicans out of office - everybody knows that, Democrats and Republicans alike)


When it was Bush (R), it's evil.  HE'S NOT MY PRESIDENT bumper stickers.

When it's Obama, it's okay.  It did good things. 

My hypocrisy meter only goes so far.
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thellama73 View Drop Down
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Points: 8368 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 22:05
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

But the point is that under Bush it was called an egregious and unprecedented breach of civil liberties, and now it's called "some questionable anti-terrorism bill."
No, I called it that, most people probably still think it's egregious and unprecedented. 




Maybe they do, but I haven't heard anyone say it.
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 22:05
By the way- nowhere am I defending Republicans.  So telling me a Republican did it too won't help.  Obama is a Republican.  Bush was a Democrat.

Your political parties have made merchandise of you.

Edited by Epignosis - September 21 2012 at 22:06
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Points: 65249 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 22:07
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I don't like Romney either.  I'm just more interested in knowing why Obama supporters want to vote for him while they criticize Bush. 

I think it's because most Democrats vote based on lies and party rhetoric.
If by that you mean they're naive optimists, then yes.
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 22:10
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

I don't like Romney either.  I'm just more interested in knowing why Obama supporters want to vote for him while they criticize Bush. 

I think it's because most Democrats vote based on lies and party rhetoric.
If by that you mean they're naive optimists, then yes.




I can accept that once.  Not twice.
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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Points: 65249 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 22:12
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Your political parties have made merchandise of you.
Which Libertarianism will be in grave danger of in the not so distant future if it continues to become popular.
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kenethlevine View Drop Down
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Points: 8950 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 22:13
All is compromise in politics, whether it's a socially liberal republican who holds his nose while voting for Romney because he truly believes that is the best thing for the economy, or a radical liberal who finds Obama too conservative but would rather see him than Romney in the white house again.  The Afghan was a good move by Bush, the Iraq war less so.  
Don't I get to vote, or do I have to be 100% aligned with a candidate to do so?   And something you don't seem to appreciate is how much of the Bush hatred is for his persona as much as for his policies.
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 22:15
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Your political parties have made merchandise of you.
Which Libertarianism will be in grave danger of in the not so distant future if it continues to become popular.



With this now?  I'll take my chances, thank you very much.
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 22:17
It's late for me and I have to do some work outside tomorrow in the back yard.  Nice debating with you fellows!  Good night all.
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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Points: 65249 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 22:17
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Your political parties have made merchandise of you.
Which Libertarianism will be in grave danger of in the not so distant future if it continues to become popular.
With this now?  I'll take my chances, thank you very much.
I'm just pointing it out as a universal aspect of politics; you should take it as constructive, and as a chance to at least factor it in.
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Points: 8950 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 22:24
yeah I have a furniture delivery coming early morning
thanks for the debate guys
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Points: 8543 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 23:49
How many of those who praised Bush are now calling Obama a traitor who should be imprisoned or dealt with more severely?  My b.s. meter only goes so far (and not very far at that).
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Points: 502 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2012 at 16:34
I'm not american, but since has given to Bush a second chance, I don't know why Obama shouldn't have it..
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 24 2012 at 06:53
http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/10dg0w/mitt_romney_on_60_minutes_cites_emergency_room_as/

Oh Mittens....

See, I would support totally overhauling insurance and health care in the US like Rob supports, that is if people in countries with more socialized health care were actually dissatisfied with it.

Oh those poor, socialized countries with their higher quality of life and lower medical bills.

Butt I guess taxes are just armed robbery, plain and simple. And we were so close to being a first world health care provider....



Edited by stonebeard - September 24 2012 at 06:54
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