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Atavachron 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65239 |
 Posted: September 21 2012 at 21:57 |
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I did read your list (twice) and I'm not sure how to better put my response.
It is somewhat nebulous I suppose, but things are not so cut & dry;
I doubt many Lefties have stopped losing their sh*t over the Patriot
Act - nor many Libertarians, I assume - but it doesn't make good
political sense to protest the Patriot Act when they'd much rather have
a smart, pro-choice Dem in office who happens to have extended some
questionable anti-terrorism bill than a Reaganesque boob who just got
finished telling his upperclass supporters how half of us don't want to
work toward improving our lives.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: September 21 2012 at 21:44 |
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Why do they trust Obama's judgment more than Bush's? That makes no sense. Obama did many of the same things as Bush, only more so. Please help me on this. Look at my list. Compare it to Bush's policies. Liberals lost their sh*t over the Patriot Act. Obama signed an extension of it, then signed the NDAA. How is that good judgment? I'm asking a simple question: If you hated Bush, why are you voting (AGAIN) for Obama? |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: September 21 2012 at 21:39 |
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I've not had anyone respond to my question yet, except, in a way, one. Chester did say (to his credit), that he will vote for Obama to keep people he doesn't like out of power.
And I must admit, that's honest, and a lot more than I'm getting from a lot of people. |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65239 |
Posted: September 21 2012 at 21:37 |
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thellama73
Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 29 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8368 |
Posted: September 21 2012 at 21:33 |
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I also appreciate Ken's thoughtful post. Most of the things on his list are major reasons why I will not vote for Obama.
I am interested to hear the response, because right now the only conclusion I can logically reach is that Democrats have no actual policy positions and only care about the party rather than what it stands for. If Obama could start wars, kill civilians with drones, make no effort to legalize same sex marriage and continuously hop into bed with big business while still getting Deomcrat approval, I honestly believe he could make abortion illegal and end medicare without them complaining either. |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: September 21 2012 at 21:26 |
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Thanks for posting Ken.
I think "not [being] totally happy with Obama" is a cop out. Can you give me a number from my list that you approve of and why? (bin Laden is not a choice on my list because bin Laden is a red herring in terms of the election- do you believe a man with no military experience suddenly led US military to bin Laden?) The premise of my post was that Democracts, who criticize Bush, support a President who is not only a lot like Bush, but more so! So what on my list was good and why? |
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kenethlevine
Special Collaborator
Prog-Folk Team Joined: December 06 2006 Location: New England Status: Offline Points: 8950 |
Posted: September 21 2012 at 21:06 |
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While I am not totally happy with Obama, I don't consider everything on Rob's list to be a negative. Even those policies started by George W Bush have been often better implemented by Obama, like taking out Bin Laden as a for instance. Also, Rob's list is designed to show similarities between Obama and Bush, but for every similarity, there are many differences, as I'm sure Rob will agree. Whether you find those differences in favor of one or the other is of course the subject of debate. More importantly, it's the distinction with Romney that is really crucial. Romney plans to return to the "tried and true principles" of 30 years ago, as if America was so much purer back then.
Here are some of Obama's accomplishments with citations, most of which show quite a distinction in principles and/or competency over Bush, and I daresay Romney as well. There are many more. He committed to phasing out unnecessary and outdated weapons systems, and also signed the Weapons Systems Acquisition Reform Act He oversaw a bailout of General Motors that saved at least 1.4 million jobs, and put pressure on the company to change its practices, resulting in GM returning to its place as the top car company in the world. http://lat.ms/zIJuQx
He dismantled the Minerals Management Service, thereby moving forward to cut ties between energy companies and the government. http://nyti.ms/bw1MLu He made it so that banks could no longer use YOUR money to invest in high-risk financial instruments that work against their own customers’ interests. http://bit.ly/fnTayj He oversaw and then signed the most sweeping food safety legislation since the Great Depression. http://thedc.com/gxkCtP He advocated for and signed the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd, Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act, which made it a federal crime to assault anyone based on his or her sexual orientation or gender identity. http://bit.ly/gsMSJ7 He pushed through, signed and demanded the Pentagon enact a repeal of the discriminatory “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” policy that forced soldiers to lie to fight for their country, and put our troops at risk by disqualifying many qualified soldiers from helping. http://bit.ly/fdahuH http://bit.ly/mZV4Pz He established a White House Council on Women and Girls http://1.usa.gov/rFfqMM Closed a number of secret detention facilities. http://nyti.ms/rpUc9l He ordered the closure of the prison at Guantanamo Bay. It was Republicans (and a smattering of Democrats) who prevented him from following through. http://bit.ly/eW6CVF Ordered a review of our detention and interrogation policy, and prohibited the use of torture, or what Bush called “enhanced interrogation.” He ordered interrogators to limit their actions to the Army Field manual. http://bit.ly/g6MTuC He ordered all secret detention facilities in Eastern Europe and elsewhere to be closed. http://bbc.in/h6N9ax He released the Bush torture memos. http://bit.ly/hWJ5z0 On his second day in office, he signed a detailed Executive Order that banned torture, reversed all Bush torture policies, and put the United States in compliance with the Geneva Convention. http://1.usa.gov/dL6Zve http://nyti.ms/hzWWys In response to the emerging “Arab Spring,” he created a Rapid Response fund, to assist emerging democracies with foreign aid, debt relief, technical assistance and investment packages in order to show that the United States stands with them. http://bit.ly/zfmGv9 Passed the Iran Sanctions Act, to prevent war, and to encourage Iran to give up their nuclear program. http://1.usa.gov/wLtNjb Ended the Iraq War. http://tgr.ph/ru0tyS He took steps to severely weaken al Qaeda and limited their ability to terrorize the world. http://yhoo.it/n5lXs6 He negotiated and signed a nuclear nonproliferation treaty with India. http://1.usa.gov/aHp0Cn He took decisive action to use NATO to limit the slaughter of innocents in Libya, so that the Libyan people could topple a despotic government and determine their own fate. http://aje.me/qAh4Sj He put an end to the Bush-era stop-loss policy that kept soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan beyond their enlistment date. http://nyti.ms/e2YQ7Q He ushered through the largest spending increase in 30 years for the Department of Veterans Affairs for improved medical facilities, and to assist states in acquiring or constructing state nursing homes and extended care facilities. http://1.usa.gov/gY8O3x He eliminated the Bush-era restrictions on embryonic stem cell research. He also provided increased federal support for biomedical and stem cell research. http://bit.ly/h36SSO http://ti.me/edezge He eliminated the Bush-era practice of forbidding Medicare from negotiating with drug companies on price. http://bit.ly/fOkG5b His EPA reversed a Bush-era decision to allow the largest mountaintop removal project in US history. http://bit.ly/lP3yEL He restarted nuclear nonproliferation talks and built up the nuclear inspection infrastructure/protocols to where they had been before Bush. http://lat.ms/gkcl3i Through the Defense Authorization Act, he reversed the Bush Administration and committed to no permanent military bases in Iraq. http://bit.ly/hk73OJ Bypassed Republican opposition in Congress and ordered EPA to begin regulating and measuring carbon emissions. http://bit.ly/froaP5 His EPA ruled that CO2 is a pollutant. http://bit.ly/iQTSNN He doubled federal spending on clean energy research. http://bit.ly/iN0sCE He pushed through a tax credit to help people buy plug-in hybrid cars. http://bit.ly/j8UP5Y He created a program to develop renewable energy projects on the waters of our Outer Continental Shelf that will produce electricity from wind, wave, and ocean currents. http://1.usa.gov/fgfRWq He reengaged in the climate change and greenhouse gas emissions agreements talks, and even proposed one himself. He also addressed the U.N. Climate Change Conference, officially reversing the Bush-era stance that climate change was a “hoax.” http://bit.ly/dX6Vj3 http://bit.ly/fE2PxK http://nyti.ms/hfeqvv Following Bush’s eight year reign, he reengaged in a number of treaties and agreements designed to protect the Antarctic. http://bit.ly/fzQUFO Through the EPA, he took steps to severely limit the use of antibiotics in livestock feed, to increase their efficacy in humans. http://bit.ly/fBuWd2 He increased funding for National Parks and Forests by 10% http://bit.ly/fbJPjY He eliminated federal funding for abstinence-only education, and he rescinded the global gag rule. http://bit.ly/eCFAI1 http://bit.ly/f92drF |
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Dayvenkirq
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: May 25 2011 Location: Los Angeles, CA Status: Offline Points: 10970 |
Posted: September 21 2012 at 20:04 |
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Because people don't know anything about (or most of) that? And when I say "people", I mean folks such as myself, people who don't watch the news (albeit I don't want either one of these two to be the next U.S. president at this point, now that I saw your list and I trust your judgment).
Edited by Dayvenkirq - September 21 2012 at 20:09 |
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catfood03
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 24 2009 Status: Offline Points: 785 |
Posted: September 21 2012 at 19:24 |
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Marack O'bomney
(yes, dumb contribution to the discussion I know) |
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 29 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8368 |
Posted: September 21 2012 at 19:08 |
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Apart from the tax cuts, I don't consider anything on that list conservative. And I also thought No Country For Old Men was overrated. Edited by thellama73 - September 21 2012 at 19:10 |
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 23 2005 Location: The Tardis Status: Offline Points: 8543 |
Posted: September 21 2012 at 18:42 |
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A few points to make here about this. First, I'm not really sure what the point is there. So, yes, Obama has done some conservative things which we liberals don't like. That means we should just vote for the full-on conservative? That makes no sense. Second, I do not know any liberals who are not at least somewhat disappointed by Obama's lack of leftist policies. It is not liberals who love Obama so much. It is centrist and conservative Democrats who like Obama. But as we liberals have no other viable option, as it is either Obama (a sometimes right-leaning centrist whose conservative leanings strongly disappoint) or a full-on conservative who will run down the poor and middle class to serve the desires of the rich and powerful. Not much of a choice, is it?  Of course, I strongly support a multi-party (or no-party) system and proportional representation which would eliminate the stranglehold the centrist democrats and the right-wing republicans have on this country. It will never happen though, because we americans are a thick lot (in more ways than one these days). |
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: September 21 2012 at 18:14 |
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Just in case any of those 27 people in the poll missed this:
Can you look at this list and tell me why Obama is so desirable? |
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: September 21 2012 at 18:09 |
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I found the movie so overrated. Though MoM's look-alike gave quite a performance
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: September 21 2012 at 16:43 |
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Actually I did too. I don't even remember most of it.  |
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: September 21 2012 at 16:41 |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: September 21 2012 at 16:01 |
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If I recall from the film, that's actually his hair. |
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: September 21 2012 at 15:52 |
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 I always thought you had your brains blown out all over the floor
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: September 21 2012 at 15:22 |
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I realize I should not have subjected any of you to my abhorrent countenance. So sorry. |
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008 Location: PA, USA Status: Offline Points: 4335 |
Posted: September 21 2012 at 15:01 |
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I shouldn't have looked at the last page, now I know what epignosis looks like. I shouldn't know what any of you look like or what your real names are, for that matter. This is irresponsible internetting, people.
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 Time always wins. |
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Posted: September 21 2012 at 04:23 |
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I made a number of these points in my post, but they were ignored. When liberals put their political blinkers on, their beloved leaders could be committing genocide and their followers would choose not to see it, or would claim they were being misrepresented by a biased media. Do you remember the noise when Bush rolled out the Patriot Act? Do you remember the mass global protests about the Iraq war? Obama rolls out the NDAA, no one bats an eye. He goes to war in Libya without congressional approval, actually stating that he now takes his authority from the UN, and no debate follows on this subject. It's wake up time. |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Romney or Obama (or Third party)
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Atavachron wrote: