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Snow Dog View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 10:01
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I wonder why that didn't get a "First Review of this Album" tag? Does that not apply to singles?
 
 
Anyway, 119 words for two tracks ... not bad... Wink

I did waffle a bit.
Who doesn't. It's when that waffle is the only component of a review (regardless of length) I would question whether it qualifies as a review or not. If the waffle is setting the scene and providing some background then that adds to the review and makes it more interesting to read perhaps, but at the end of the day if you hadn't mentioned the tracks themselves then it would not have been much of a review of a two track single. A music review is a piece of creative writing, waffle and all. This post is also one hundred words.

Yes, all good points. I wanted to  show my  personal connection  with  the single and reading it again  I am not entirely happy with it. I think some editing and rewriting is required. Incidentally I have updated the Defector album and it now shows all the  bonus tracks  available. I really  must get some practise in on my reviews though,  which was partly my point in reviewing The Show. This post is not quite one hundred words.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 10:10
Originally posted by HolyMoly HolyMoly wrote:

I forgot about online translators, I guess a lot of people use those?  I was referring to the English-only rule as applied to someone who doesn't speak English at all -- which is one of the core reasons why we don't require a written review in order to rate an album.
And it is a damn fine reason too. I am in awe of anyone here whose second language is English, some of our best reviewers are not writing in their mother tongue and their eloquence and skill puts me to shame. We rarely criticise anyone’s use of grammar and spelling here but we seldom give praise were it is due either, and that is sad. We do pick up on reviews that lack content, those that do not meet some unwritten requirement of what a review is, and for a review site that is not unfair. One hundred words again.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 10:17
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

..Then why is it that many of the people who complain about the 100 word limit have English as their first language? The ability to have an opinion on a piece of music is not restricted by the language you speak, the emotions and feelings you get can be expressed in any language. Translating that into another language is not an issue of word-count or vocabulary.  If you feel that a particular section of music or a musician’s ability affects you in a certain way then putting that into words is what a review is. This is one hundred words.



Yes but if your 100 words are not deemed good enough by the powers that be .... your 100 words are deleted
I have no idea what I wrote back in 2008..... but I am pretty sure it did not deserve to be deleted.

Here is an e-mail I dug up from 2008  

  • ProgArchives - Reviews Moderation: BEGGARS OPERA - Act One Beggars Opera‏


    10/04/2008

    Reply  ▼

      name withheld

    To [email protected]


    Hi digdug,

     

    Thanks for the review you submitted to the Progarchives website.


    Unfortunately, I have decided to delete the review, and I will try to explain why. It's essential that reviews do not simply say "this album is great", or "this album sucks", without the reviewer expanding WHY they have come to this conclusion. Reviews should BE OF REAL USE AND INTEREST TO OTHER PROGRESSIVE MUSIC FANS, WHO CAN THEN BENEFIT BY FINDING NEW AVENUES FOR THEIR MUSICAL EXPLORATION. 


    Please try to CONSIDER ASPECTS WHICH WILL BE OF INTEREST TO THE READER SUCH AS THE STYLE OF MUSIC, NOTABLE INFLUENCES, SIMILAR BANDS, BEST TRACKS, PRODUCTION QUALITY, MUSICIANS INVOLVED, ALBUM HISTORY, ETC.   Those reading your review do not wish to simply be told "this album is great, you must 

    buy it". They want to read pertinent information which will help them come to their OWN conclusions as to whether it might be for them.  You have not actually said what it is you like about the album.


    Please do NOT see this as a personal criticism, your contribution to the site IS valued. You are invited, indeed encouraged, to submit another review. 


    I have added below a reminder of some of the main guidelines for reviews for your information.



    Yours in prog,


    name withheld

    Reviews & Forum Moderator



Prog On!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 10:41
Originally posted by digdug digdug wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

..Then why is it that many of the people who complain about the 100 word limit have English as their first language? The ability to have an opinion on a piece of music is not restricted by the language you speak, the emotions and feelings you get can be expressed in any language. Translating that into another language is not an issue of word-count or vocabulary.  If you feel that a particular section of music or a musician’s ability affects you in a certain way then putting that into words is what a review is. This is one hundred words.



Yes but if your 100 words are not deemed good enough by the powers that be .... your 100 words are deleted
I have no idea what I wrote back in 2008..... but I am pretty sure it did not deserve to be deleted.

Here is an e-mail I dug up from 2008
::snip::
I cannot comment on specific cases because I wasn’t specifically involved (I can make an educated guess who was). It seems to me that rather than take those comments on-board you decided to take umbrage instead, and that is a perfectly acceptable reaction, but not one to complain about four years later perhaps. Without the actual review it is impossible to judge whether that Admin was being reasonable or not, looking at your other reviews from that time I don’t see anything wrong with them so must assume that the one in question was not up to your same standard.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 10:56
I took umbrage after many  reviews were deleted....   I could never predict ahead of time which would be allowed to stay and which would be deleted.

I didn't complain then.... I just stopped writing reviews

the only reason I am mentioning it now.....  is not to complain  per ce

but to show that writing acceptable reviews is not as easy as you guys are making it out to be

there really should be some sort of  middle ground  between a rating with no text
and a full blown review

Prog On!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 11:04
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


I enjoy Tormato and Close to the Edge.  Should I give them both five stars?

I know I've taken a while to address this, but let me ask you this: if you take away all the history, and opinions of other people, how would YOU rate each of these albums?  If your honest answer to that question is 5 stars for each, then give them each 5 stars, man!  Because think about this - if you are taking stars away from one of these albums because of history and other people's opinions, then what do you do when you're given an album that hasn't been released to the public yet and asked to review it?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 15:23
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


I enjoy Tormato and Close to the Edge.  Should I give them both five stars?

I know I've taken a while to address this, but let me ask you this: if you take away all the history, and opinions of other people, how would YOU rate each of these albums?  If your honest answer to that question is 5 stars for each, then give them each 5 stars, man!  Because think about this - if you are taking stars away from one of these albums because of history and other people's opinions, then what do you do when you're given an album that hasn't been released to the public yet and asked to review it?


I think you guys are both mostly in agreement, you're just misunderstanding each other.  You both think reviews/ratings are subjective, and if I'm interpreting you right, you would both base your rating on the degree of enjoyment.  For Geoff, that means a lot of 5-stars because he tends to have an overwhelmingly positive attitude towards the music he enjoys, and for Rob, that means more 4's and 3's because he's more critical in the way he reviews.  (I hope I'm not putting words into your mouths, just wanting to help you understand each other better).

No one should get uptight about this issue.  True, we have rating guidelines on this site, but the key word is "guidelines;" there's no absolute standard of how to review and rate albums as long as you don't blatantly abuse the system.  Some try to review objectively, some subjectively; some rate based on "progressiveness" while others do so based on the quality of the music regardless of this style; some use more 1's and 5's and some use less.  Some of these differences can be irritating (I hate to see an album I like assigned less stars because it isn't "progressive" enough) but in the end we have to realize that everyone has a different way of evaluating music, and we have to respect each others' ways of doing that.  I'm all for discussion about the matter, because I think that there are better and worse ways of reviewing, but I don't think it's a big enough deal that anyone should be angry or frustrated about it.
I love dogs, I've always loved dogs
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 15:50
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


I enjoy Tormato and Close to the Edge.  Should I give them both five stars?

I know I've taken a while to address this, but let me ask you this: if you take away all the history, and opinions of other people, how would YOU rate each of these albums?  If your honest answer to that question is 5 stars for each, then give them each 5 stars, man!  Because think about this - if you are taking stars away from one of these albums because of history and other people's opinions, then what do you do when you're given an album that hasn't been released to the public yet and asked to review it?


It's impossible for me to divest myself of the context in which I hear albums.  I do not know what you mean by "history," but I can assure that other people's opinions do not drive my reviews.  It's a tad...I don't want to say offensive, but that's how it feels... that someone would suggest that I'm being somehow manipulated in the course of rating albums. 

I think you may still be missing my point: Enjoying an album is not all it takes for an album to five stars.  The question of enjoyment ventures beyond "yes or no." 

I love hot dogs and I love filet Mignon.  But in the span of my tastes, I would give a hot dog 3 stars and the filet Mignon 5 stars.  Similarly, I like both Tormato and Close to the Edge, but I like the latter far more than the former.  Hence three and five stars respectively.

What I don't like are

a) People who use 5 and 1 star exclusively

and

b) The gaggle of people that bombard this site with five star reviews for an album that just came out. 

Both of these strike me as disingenuous. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 15:53
I don't have to respect people who use deceit to rate albums.  Refer back to my original post. Raters who use ratings to manipulate, even in a small way, are not deserving of respect. They obviously do not respect this site, the artists whose creative endeavor they are rating, and the rest of the members of this site.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2012 at 19:29
I always just look at the average rating and give a rating as close to that number as possible. I don't want to ruffle any feathers by advancing a controversial opinion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2012 at 07:08
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I wonder why that didn't get a "First Review of this Album" tag? Does that not apply to singles?
 
 
Anyway, 119 words for two tracks ... not bad... Wink

I did waffle a bit.
Who doesn't. It's when that waffle is the only component of a review (regardless of length) I would question whether it qualifies as a review or not. If the waffle is setting the scene and providing some background then that adds to the review and makes it more interesting to read perhaps, but at the end of the day if you hadn't mentioned the tracks themselves then it would not have been much of a review of a two track single. A music review is a piece of creative writing, waffle and all. This post is also one hundred words.

Yes, all good points. I wanted to  show my  personal connection  with  the single and reading it again  I am not entirely happy with it. I think some editing and rewriting is required. Incidentally I have updated the Defector album and it now shows all the  bonus tracks  available. I really  must get some practise in on my reviews though,  which was partly my point in reviewing The Show. This post is not quite one hundred words.

The  review  is longer now.  Is it better? 188 words
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2012 at 07:15
^ I think this needs moving to another thread. Reading it again  though. My style  seems jerky and uncomfortable
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2012 at 07:38
Originally posted by digdug digdug wrote:

I took umbrage after many  reviews were deleted....   I could never predict ahead of time which would be allowed to stay and which would be deleted.

I didn't complain then.... I just stopped writing reviews

the only reason I am mentioning it now.....  is not to complain  per ce

but to show that writing acceptable reviews is not as easy as you guys are making it out to be

there really should be some sort of  middle ground  between a rating with no text
and a full blown review

I guess at this juncture I should really just shut up. I stopped writing reviews because I found them difficult even though I am seldom lost for something to say on any subject. No one ever said it was easy. When I was an Admin I did not moderate reviews, I never deleted a review unless the reviewer asked me to but that does not prevent me from having an opinion on them. One hundred words is not a novel, but one hundred words that say nothing of the music the review is supposed to be of isn't a review.


Edited by Dean - September 22 2012 at 07:41
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2012 at 07:43
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


I love hot dogs and I love filet Mignon.  But in the span of my tastes, I would give a hot dog 3 stars and the filet Mignon 5 stars.  Similarly, I like both Tormato and Close to the Edge, but I like the latter far more than the former.

But don't think of it in such general terms of hot dogs and filet mignon.  Think of it as if you were rating restaurants, and rating them according to what they are.  For example - say I was rating restaurants, and I went to this hot dog place that really made the best hot dogs I've ever had in my life!  5 stars!  Yeah, it's not filet mignon.  I never thought it would be.  And it wouldn't be fair for me to say "well, I can't give this restaurant a good rating because...well, it's not filet mignon."  For me, when I rate an album one of the thoughts that crosses my mind is "how often do I think I will listen to this album?"  And the answer to that doesn't always accurately define what rating I will give the album, but hopefully you get where I'm going.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2012 at 09:56
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I wonder why that didn't get a "First Review of this Album" tag? Does that not apply to singles?
 
 
Anyway, 119 words for two tracks ... not bad... Wink

I did waffle a bit.
Who doesn't. It's when that waffle is the only component of a review (regardless of length) I would question whether it qualifies as a review or not. If the waffle is setting the scene and providing some background then that adds to the review and makes it more interesting to read perhaps, but at the end of the day if you hadn't mentioned the tracks themselves then it would not have been much of a review of a two track single. A music review is a piece of creative writing, waffle and all. This post is also one hundred words.

Yes, all good points. I wanted to  show my  personal connection  with  the single and reading it again  I am not entirely happy with it. I think some editing and rewriting is required. Incidentally I have updated the Defector album and it now shows all the  bonus tracks  available. I really  must get some practise in on my reviews though,  which was partly my point in reviewing The Show. This post is not quite one hundred words.

The  review  is longer now.  Is it better? 188 words


You got me curious about it and I'm trying to track it down now, so I guess your review was successful enough.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2012 at 22:00
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


I love hot dogs and I love filet Mignon.  But in the span of my tastes, I would give a hot dog 3 stars and the filet Mignon 5 stars.  Similarly, I like both Tormato and Close to the Edge, but I like the latter far more than the former.

But don't think of it in such general terms of hot dogs and filet mignon.  Think of it as if you were rating restaurants, and rating them according to what they are.  For example - say I was rating restaurants, and I went to this hot dog place that really made the best hot dogs I've ever had in my life!  5 stars!  Yeah, it's not filet mignon.  I never thought it would be.  And it wouldn't be fair for me to say "well, I can't give this restaurant a good rating because...well, it's not filet mignon."  For me, when I rate an album one of the thoughts that crosses my mind is "how often do I think I will listen to this album?"  And the answer to that doesn't always accurately define what rating I will give the album, but hopefully you get where I'm going.
Being a Newbie come Groupie of a couple of months, I have been enjoying the hades out of myself reviewing some of my old favorites from the years gone past, but I found it a struggle to eventually give an album a 5 and have pulled back on a few.  I really have not delved into stuff, yet, that I did not like much, but I am sure I would struggle to give something a 1 as usually there is a little something I would like or identify with.  I also think I need to keep in mind that to give an album a 3 is not a bad thing but really a complement based on this site's rating system.
 
I do find it troubling that an album gets a 5 only after an hour of being released.  I would like to see a 1 month waiting period for rating new albums, with the exception of the Collaborators.
 
I do like the parable of going to a Hot Dog joint and getting a 5 star hot dog...although I prefer Kielbasa. Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2012 at 23:43
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


I love hot dogs and I love filet Mignon.  But in the span of my tastes, I would give a hot dog 3 stars and the filet Mignon 5 stars.  Similarly, I like both Tormato and Close to the Edge, but I like the latter far more than the former.

But don't think of it in such general terms of hot dogs and filet mignon.  Think of it as if you were rating restaurants, and rating them according to what they are.  For example - say I was rating restaurants, and I went to this hot dog place that really made the best hot dogs I've ever had in my life!  5 stars!  Yeah, it's not filet mignon.  I never thought it would be.  And it wouldn't be fair for me to say "well, I can't give this restaurant a good rating because...well, it's not filet mignon."  For me, when I rate an album one of the thoughts that crosses my mind is "how often do I think I will listen to this album?"  And the answer to that doesn't always accurately define what rating I will give the album, but hopefully you get where I'm going.


That's an inappropriate analogy for this situation. If Rob was saying that he wouldn't give a punk album five stars because the musicianship is not up to the level of other genres, then it would be an apt comparison. But comparing a Yes album to another Yes album is better described the way Rob has done.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2012 at 00:35
Originally posted by dtguitarfan dtguitarfan wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


I love hot dogs and I love filet Mignon.  But in the span of my tastes, I would give a hot dog 3 stars and the filet Mignon 5 stars.  Similarly, I like both Tormato and Close to the Edge, but I like the latter far more than the former.

But don't think of it in such general terms of hot dogs and filet mignon.  Think of it as if you were rating restaurants, and rating them according to what they are.  For example - say I was rating restaurants, and I went to this hot dog place that really made the best hot dogs I've ever had in my life!  5 stars!  Yeah, it's not filet mignon.  I never thought it would be.  And it wouldn't be fair for me to say "well, I can't give this restaurant a good rating because...well, it's not filet mignon."  For me, when I rate an album one of the thoughts that crosses my mind is "how often do I think I will listen to this album?"  And the answer to that doesn't always accurately define what rating I will give the album, but hopefully you get where I'm going.


That's not what Rob is saying.  Should or shouldn't you have the ability to discriminate between two restaurants, two albums, two movies, two novels and so on and so forth?  So much overwhelming positivity sounds nice on paper but it's also not very helpful or reliable for a reader.  If two restaurants are good but one is decidedly better than the other, my friends would expect me to say that, especially if they also call for varying budgets.  

Please bear in mind that your reviews are also for the consumption of users of the website and not just the product of your self indulgence.  I don't mean you specifically here, but just a figurative you.  If I wanted to rave about a favourite artist, I would find a friend I know who shares my preferences and rave to him or simply use my blog.  

A review is by nature an empathetic endeavour and not a self centred one.  You use the prism of your experience to attempt to describe and grade an album in a way that others might be able to relate to.   I do make an exception for this rule when it comes to albums that divide opinion:  if I really like it, I will just go ahead with my rating and if I don't, I will usually avoid rating or reviewing it.   But you do have to put yourself in the shoes of other listeners, it is not such a laughably presumptuous exercise as you make it out to be.  It is something we regularly do in life - attempting to understand the other person's feelings.   I cannot claim to completely understand what music is best for somebody else but I have to make an effort to relate to it when I review an album.  A review that is only concerned with what I, I and more capital I think about an album does not need to be shared with a larger audience for reading. 


Edited by rogerthat - September 23 2012 at 00:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2012 at 07:05
I would also like to add this:

I don't know how this works for other people, but for me, a 5 star album is one that goes beyond enjoyment.  It changes me.  It moves me in a poignant and ineffable way.  It may change the way I think about music.  It may change the way I think about life.  It is, as an album, a premium and rare experience that moves me.  And here's another thing: My mind can conjure up almost any passage from any album I have awarded five stars.  That is why I can never give a 5 star review after one or two listens.  The experience of amazement must not just repeat itself- it must grow in magnitude.

A 4 star album may have some of these qualities, but the impact is less profound (or less consistent).  "Turn of the Century" and "Awaken" do the above for me, but "Going for the One," "Wonderous Stories," and "Parallels" do not.  Hence, 4 stars.

A 3 star album is simply an album I enjoy.  It's good, but not excellent.  It is the bread before the meal- tasty, but not really satisfying.

And no album is without hope!  Well, mostly no album.  A few may remember that I had a 1 star review of Kate Bush's The Hounds of Love here for a while.  But it had a catchy nature that compelled me to revisit it, and I did- many times.  I asked Dean to delete the review, and he graciously (and perhaps quite happily) did so.  I am now prepared to write a fresh review of the album, this time with a much higher rating.

I hope this clarifies how I personally review a little.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2012 at 07:17
Originally posted by Ambient Hurricanes Ambient Hurricanes wrote:


No one should get uptight about this issue.  True, we have rating guidelines on this site, but the key word is "guidelines;" there's no absolute standard of how to review and rate albums as long as you don't blatantly abuse the system.  Some try to review objectively, some subjectively; some rate based on "progressiveness" while others do so based on the quality of the music regardless of this style; some use more 1's and 5's and some use less.  Some of these differences can be irritating (I hate to see an album I like assigned less stars because it isn't "progressive" enough) but in the end we have to realize that everyone has a different way of evaluating music, and we have to respect each others' ways of doing that.  I'm all for discussion about the matter, because I think that there are better and worse ways of reviewing, but I don't think it's a big enough deal that anyone should be angry or frustrated about it.
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Spot on, well said.
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