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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32552 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2012 at 16:23
I don't tithe.  I'm not an Israelite who has to support the Levites.
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Dean View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I would hope we all have some form of criteria for people to be doing good with a donation (I'm not sure how you can tell from a couple of sentences how stirct or pretty my criteria are), just as I would hope that we all have some decernment in which charities we chose to donate to and how deserving those charities are.


If I read your remark correctly, you would not give much credit to someone who in good faith contributes to the Church of LDS thinking that they do a lot to help the poor and disadvantages (I know next to nothing about their formal structure and what it does or does not do. I'm just running with the example). I don't mean to falsely characterize if I misinterpreted that.
I have no problem with those that donate, why would you think I would? I do not beleive that any church uses even a merest fraction of what the collect in donations to help the poor and disadvantaged - since such figures are unavailable this can neither be proven or disproved, hence it is just a belief. But it's not my place (or even inclination) to judge (or doubt the conviction of) someone who does believe their donation is doing good.
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

As I have said, I do not believe that donating to a church should be regarded as a charity donation, I do not believe that many of the non-profit organisations that have charity status should have that status and top of my list would be religious organisations. Only a fraction of the money donated to religious organisations is used for charitable purposes, so no, I do not view using the money to build new churches with lofty spires topped with gleaming golden crosses for the glorification of the congregation that worships in it as being a "good" work even if the intentions of the donator was for the money to be used for good works.


Most donors just do not realize this. I don't think good will should be dependent on any sort of intelligence. If one genuinely believes they're doing good, then I'll give them credit for doing good even if their donation might be squandered.
And so you should - the intrinsic value is in the giving not in what happens to the cash (hence I don't believe in altruism).
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:



Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


But some do.


The some and do refer to what here?
 
but some = the opposite of "I'm" and do = the opposite of "not counting a donation towards the church of scientology as a donation towards the doing of good in the world."
 
I'm not one of the some, but I would guess that Tom Cruise is.
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:



Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I do not believe in altruism. But to answer your question - no, I don't think social programs are a altruistic, they are many other things but not altruistic.


Don't believe in altruism in a Randian sense, or a scientific sense, or ...?
In the sense that I do not believe that true altruism is possible. If it were possible to be completely ambivolent then I can imagine that it may be possible, but I've not met an ambivolent person who couldn't supress their smugness yet.
 
Originally posted by thellama73 thellama73 wrote:

I don't believe in ghosts. I mean, I think they exist, but I oppose them philosophically.
I don't believe in ghosts. I mean, I don't think they exist, but I enjoy them fictionally.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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New look at the big bang - 4d space-time as emergent property of phase change
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I have no problem with those that donate, why would you think I would? I do not beleive that any church uses even a merest fraction of what the collect in donations to help the poor and disadvantaged - since such figures are unavailable this can neither be proven or disproved, hence it is just a belief. But it's not my place (or even inclination) to judge (or doubt the conviction of) someone who does believe their donation is doing good.


That's how I read your exchange with Logan. You first eight words there cleared that up.

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

And so you should - the intrinsic value is in the giving not in what happens to the cash (hence I don't believe in altruism).


So we agree.


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
but some = the opposite of "I'm" and do = the opposite of "not counting a donation towards the church of scientology as a donation towards the doing of good in the world."
 
I'm not one of the some, but I would guess that Tom Cruise is.


Gotcha. Of course.


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


In the sense that I do not believe that true altruism is possible. If it were possible to be completely ambivolent then I can imagine that it may be possible, but I've not met an ambivolent person who couldn't supress their smugness yet.
 
Could you elaborate? I'm interested.


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - August 22 2012 at 10:05
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


In the sense that I do not believe that true altruism is possible. If it were possible to be completely ambivolent then I can imagine that it may be possible, but I've not met an ambivolent person who couldn't supress their smugness yet.
 
Could you elaborate? I'm interested.
Not really, there's nothing it in in it for me.


Edited by Dean - August 22 2012 at 10:28
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Dyslexia much? ^
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Originally posted by timothy leary timothy leary wrote:

Dyslexia much? ^
Yes, it's a burden I have to suffer. My daughter is dyslexic too.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


In the sense that I do not believe that true altruism is possible. If it were possible to be completely ambivolent then I can imagine that it may be possible, but I've not met an ambivolent person who couldn't supress their smugness yet.
 
Could you elaborate? I'm interested.
Not really, there's nothing it in in it for me.


Well, I'm sure that you could elaborate if you so desired.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


In the sense that I do not believe that true altruism is possible. If it were possible to be completely ambivolent then I can imagine that it may be possible, but I've not met an ambivolent person who couldn't supress their smugness yet.
 
Could you elaborate? I'm interested.
Not really, there's nothing it in in it for me.


Well, I'm sure that you could elaborate if you so desired.


I have often heard the theory that there is no such thing as a truly selfless act, and I think there is some truth in it. Doing good deeds makes one feel good, so in that sense they are not really selfless. Even the knowledge that you have done the right thing, regardless of the what personal inconvenience or hardship results is something positive, so the argument can be made that it's impossible to be truly altruistic.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Yes. I feel the same way essentially. I was wondering if Dean came from the same place with his rejection of the concept. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Basically, yes I did - there is always some form of intrinsic reward in any act.
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Even if one person lays down their life for another?
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Yup - especially if one person lays down their life for another.
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What is the dead persons reward?
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Death. Stern Smile
 
 
...in the knowledge their life saved another - it is perfectly acceptable to receive the reward before the deed.
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It's like in economics: one person measures the personal benefits of one choice vs another. If the person's balance shifts towards one side, that is benefitial to him. If giving away all one's fortune is chosen, is because the consequence is seen as more important in the balance. If one decides to give one's life for somebody else, one values that someone else's life more than one's own. Value, in the end, decides everything. I never grasped this concept even when I studied one year of economics over 10 years ago until I started reading about free markets and libertarinism just a little over a year and a half ago.

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Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Death. Stern Smile
 

 

...in the knowledge their life saved another - it is perfectly acceptable to receive the reward before the deed.
This might not be the sharpest of questions but should de reward be able to be experienced to actually be considered as such? I agree with your whole point but in this case saying death is the reward seems difficult to grasp.
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Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

It's like in economics: one person measures the personal benefits of one choice vs another. If the person's balance shifts towards one side, that is benefitial to him. If giving away all one's fortune is chosen, is because the consequence is seen as more important in the balance. If one decides to give one's life for somebody else, one values that someone else's life more than one's own. Value, in the end, decides everything. I never grasped this concept even when I studied one year of economics over 10 years ago until I started reading about free markets and libertarinism just a little over a year and a half ago.

you don't need to study librarianism or flee markets to get that. Life teaches you that. Seeing people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing teaches you that.


Edited by Dean - August 22 2012 at 12:20
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Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Death. Stern Smile
 

 

...in the knowledge their life saved another - it is perfectly acceptable to receive the reward before the deed.
This might not be the sharpest of questions but should de reward be able to be experienced to actually be considered as such? I agree with your whole point but in this case saying death is the reward seems difficult to grasp.
The bards will sing the praises of the person who died for all eternity.  The deed of sacrificing one's life will be immortalized in song.  Oh, what a lucky man he was.
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It's like something sold on credit. Even thought he actual payment is deferred, you still receive the benefit of having made the sale. Since your are deriving a secondary reward from the action, the action doesn't actually have to occur yet. You probably felt pride when you graduated from High School before you actually got the diploma. You can feel good about saving one's life before the bullet pierces your skin. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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