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Lofcaudio 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 04 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 444
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 Posted: August 10 2012 at 10:04 |
 rogerthat wrote:
I beg to differ, none of those KC tracks are so rambling and devoid of evolution as Raider. 
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Ha! You're absolutely correct in that, but I was trying to be nice to Wilson and to all of the fanboys that seem to think that Raider II is the best epic ever.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: August 10 2012 at 09:50 |
I beg to differ, none of those KC tracks are so rambling and devoid of evolution as Raider.
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Lofcaudio
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 04 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 444
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Posted: August 10 2012 at 09:44 |
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I just listened to "Raider II" again (the epic from Wilson's Grace For Drowning). When has Stolt ever plagiarized a classic band as much as Wilson did with this song? Raider II is almost identical to early 70s King Crimson. Make a 23 minute edit of Talking Drum, Larks' Tongues in Aspic (either 1 or 2, you pick) and some Moonchild noodling and you've got Raider II.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: August 10 2012 at 09:11 |
Ytse_Jam wrote:
^ I don't see anyone saying PT and SW are the death of prog, though... |
And imagine the uproar if somebody actually said so on the forum.
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Ytse_Jam
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 08 2011
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 502
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Posted: August 10 2012 at 06:28 |
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^ I don't see anyone saying PT and SW are the death of prog, though...
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MillsLayne
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 14 2010
Location: East Bay, CA
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Points: 2504
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Posted: August 10 2012 at 02:14 |
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SW has always been very opinionated, so these comments don't really surprise me. And, honestly, who cares if he doesn't seem to like Roine Stolt's music or the bands he happens to be associated with? I see a lot of comments on here that are in the same vein against PT and they aren't lambasted the way he seems to be with this particular situation.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 27956
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Posted: August 10 2012 at 01:31 |
Have we managed to kick the arse out of this discussion yet?
As napoca says we will still listen to what we want to regardless. SW is not the messiah just a very naughty boy
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napoca
Forum Newbie
Joined: March 08 2004
Location: Canada
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Points: 24
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Posted: August 10 2012 at 00:50 |
Mirror Image wrote:
deckard33 wrote:
Music talent is one thing, social behavior is one other thing.
For the second thing, shame on Steven Wilson ...
Moreover, he criticized Roine Stolt for its 70's prog, but what did SW propose until now ?
All its music is strongly inspired from Pink Floyd (first PT albums), King Crimson (latest solo), but much more boring ...
Go on Roine, play what you like, stay what you are, don't waste time to answer to so mindless attacks ...
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Right on!
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This seems to be a discussion ultimately based on personal
tastes.
I don’t see that much talent in SW as I don’t see that much
bad social behavior he seems to expose according to some opinions. What social
behavior - an interview to a minor publication in which he more or less honestly
express his opinions? If he is wrong in
his opinions so what?
After all he might be as much frustrated as we are that
progressive music is not such a major act and huge success as it should deserve
to be. I personally don’t know SW’s “drama” as a musician, I only can guess it,
but this is not my business. What for sure is my business is what music I listen
to. And none of SW declarations and criticism is going to make me listen less
to Porcupine Tree or more to Flower Kings, only because his statements hurts my
personal feelings for a band or a style. I am and will listen to what I like
regardless what the members of band I might like or not have to say about themselves
or others.
The original question was if SW was right or wrong. For me
he was wrong both in the message and the way he conveyed, but I won’t like better
Flower Kings nor Transatlantic (although I don’t like that much PT either).
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Mirror Image
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2111
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Posted: August 09 2012 at 20:57 |
deckard33 wrote:
Music talent is one thing, social behavior is one other thing.
For the second thing, shame on Steven Wilson ...
Moreover, he criticized Roine Stolt for its 70's prog, but what did SW propose until now ?
All its music is strongly inspired from Pink Floyd (first PT albums), King Crimson (latest solo), but much more boring ...
Go on Roine, play what you like, stay what you are, don't waste time to answer to so mindless attacks ...
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Right on!
Edited by Mirror Image - August 09 2012 at 20:57
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“Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov
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deckard33
Forum Groupie
Joined: December 29 2011
Location: france
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Points: 55
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Posted: August 09 2012 at 16:04 |
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Music talent is one thing, social behavior is one other thing.
For the second thing, shame on Steven Wilson ...
Moreover, he criticized Roine Stolt for its 70's prog, but what did SW propose until now ?
All its music is strongly inspired from Pink Floyd (first PT albums), King Crimson (latest solo), but much more boring ...
Go on Roine, play what you like, stay what you are, don't waste time to answer to so mindless attacks ...
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 27956
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Posted: August 09 2012 at 01:28 |
sleeper wrote:
richardh wrote:
The thing that annoys me about that later interview is Steven's apparent ignorance of the English indie band Mansun that existed in the nineties (they are in PA). They released some very proggy stuff long before Radiohead withough being the slightest bit derivative of seventies prog (although a bit Beatles pastichey admittedly). Its a bit of a self conscously cool thing to do give credit to Radiohead for a prog revival which perhaps does reinforce the opinion put forward that he is a somewhat insecure person who needs to be seen as 'with it'. |
It has to be said that Mansun weren't/aren't that well known though, certainly they've dropped out of the publics awareness whilst Radiohead have been a globally massiv band since the 90's. If musicians name drop every band they think is good then interviews would never end, or go anywhere for that matter.
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Mansun were actually very popular hitting the number one spot in the UK charts with 'Attack Of The Grey Lantern' What interests me most about them is that they were starting to work on the the kind of music that Wilson eventually called his own at about the time of Kleptomania.Much darker and atmospheric than the earlier albums. Sad that they gave up so early imo. I regard them as important. Radiohead are certainly modern 'progressive' music and as you say they became a global phenomenon. The Bends cleverly paved the way for them in America until the unleashed OK Computer. Its funny though that Paranoid Android was obviously very influenced by King Crimson and ironically was in its own way 'retro' just like the bands Steven is criticising.
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Mirror Image
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2111
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Posted: August 08 2012 at 21:38 |
zumacraig wrote:
King Manuel wrote:
Now I undestand my subjective dislike of PT and SW even better!
Roine Stolt and colleagues, please carry on making your unhip, uncool, old fashioned music!!! |
i think i'm going to make that my signature quote!! Love it! |
+1
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“Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov
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zumacraig
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 10 2011
Status: Offline
Points: 1301
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Posted: August 08 2012 at 21:28 |
King Manuel wrote:
Now I undestand my subjective dislike of PT and SW even better!
Roine Stolt and colleagues, please carry on making your unhip, uncool, old fashioned music!!! |
i think i'm going to make that my signature quote!! Love it!
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Stardust we are.
-Roine Stolt
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: August 08 2012 at 21:20 |
infandous wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Ytse_Jam wrote:
^ Remember that DT had (and continue to have) the credit for bringing a lot of (young) people into prog thanks to their position between prog and metal scene. Also TFK and Transatlantic have a huge presence and importance in prog revival, don't get me wrong, but I guess its quite difficult to be aware of bands like TFK if you're not already into prog scene. |
I was about to write a comment to say more or less that. Without DT, it's unlikely the prog revival among the younger generation would have been as substantial as it turned out to be. The internet might have spread the word about TFK anyway, but what would be the link or gateway to these bands. To that extent, I maintain that TFK or Transatlantic haven't yet had close to the impact of DT.
And I am not really going to comment on the other Wilson interview.  |
I wasn't trying to downplay the impact of DT, only trying to suggest that the impact of FK and TA was a bit more than wht is being suggested here. DT was certainly the biggest draw for the younger crowd. Of course, I first heard DT back in the mid-90's, and I thought they were derivative trash compositionally, but was impressed by their chops. I've since come to have a lot more respect for them and enjoy a number of their albums. But in my case, at age 25 or so, I didn't care for them at all (of course, I was deep into my 70's prog love at that point and had been buying up Gentle Giant albums).
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TFK and Transatlantic both haven't broken through to the Billboard, as far as I know. So I guess it then depends on how many people you know that listen to either of them. Obviously if you know lot of people who do, you'd consider their impact larger than someone like me who has never met anybody outside PA who has heard of either of these bands. Maybe one or two others, but that's it. Apart from DT and Tool, Mastodon and Opeth have also been more successful than either of these bands. The older generation thinks it's mainly because they are more 'commercial'; I think it's because the younger generation prefers relatively heavy music.
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Mirror Image
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2111
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Posted: August 08 2012 at 21:01 |
This newer Wilson interview only reinforces what a clueless egomaniac he truly is. Some may say that I'm against Wilson and his music, but I'm not, I don't like it, sure, that's a fact, but I have a problem with his attitude more than anything. As I said, he can continue to deride bands like TFK or Transatlantic, but what he doesn't realize, like I said several posts back, is many of these PT listeners listen to these bands as well. I just think Wilson wants the spotlight for himself and continues to ignore the substantial popularity of TFK, Transatlantic, or Dream Theater. I'm seriously beginning to wonder if Wilson is lashing out because he somehow feels inferior to musicians like Petrucci, Stolt, Portnoy, Morse, etc., but, of course, this is just speculation and my own opinion.
Edited by Mirror Image - August 08 2012 at 21:01
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“Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov
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napoca
Forum Newbie
Joined: March 08 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 24
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Posted: August 08 2012 at 17:24 |
M27Barney wrote:
If you listen to music coz it's "cool" then just fook off....
Aye, I'm old -sh (47) but my wife won't let me grow a large beard so I must be semi-cool..... |
Who me? And I'm older than you
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: August 08 2012 at 16:51 |
richardh wrote:
The thing that annoys me about that later interview is Steven's apparent ignorance of the English indie band Mansun that existed in the nineties (they are in PA). They released some very proggy stuff long before Radiohead withough being the slightest bit derivative of seventies prog (although a bit Beatles pastichey admittedly). Its a bit of a self conscously cool thing to do give credit to Radiohead for a prog revival which perhaps does reinforce the opinion put forward that he is a somewhat insecure person who needs to be seen as 'with it'. |
It has to be said that Mansun weren't/aren't that well known though, certainly they've dropped out of the publics awareness whilst Radiohead have been a globally massiv band since the 90's. If musicians name drop every band they think is good then interviews would never end, or go anywhere for that matter.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2447
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Posted: August 08 2012 at 14:34 |
rogerthat wrote:
Ytse_Jam wrote:
^ Remember that DT had (and continue to have) the credit for bringing a lot of (young) people into prog thanks to their position between prog and metal scene. Also TFK and Transatlantic have a huge presence and importance in prog revival, don't get me wrong, but I guess its quite difficult to be aware of bands like TFK if you're not already into prog scene. |
I was about to write a comment to say more or less that. Without DT, it's unlikely the prog revival among the younger generation would have been as substantial as it turned out to be. The internet might have spread the word about TFK anyway, but what would be the link or gateway to these bands. To that extent, I maintain that TFK or Transatlantic haven't yet had close to the impact of DT.
And I am not really going to comment on the other Wilson interview. |
I wasn't trying to downplay the impact of DT, only trying to suggest that the impact of FK and TA was a bit more than wht is being suggested here. DT was certainly the biggest draw for the younger crowd. Of course, I first heard DT back in the mid-90's, and I thought they were derivative trash compositionally, but was impressed by their chops. I've since come to have a lot more respect for them and enjoy a number of their albums. But in my case, at age 25 or so, I didn't care for them at all (of course, I was deep into my 70's prog love at that point and had been buying up Gentle Giant albums).
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 27956
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Posted: August 08 2012 at 14:11 |
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The thing that annoys me about that later interview is Steven's apparent ignorance of the English indie band Mansun that existed in the nineties (they are in PA). They released some very proggy stuff long before Radiohead withough being the slightest bit derivative of seventies prog (although a bit Beatles pastichey admittedly). Its a bit of a self conscously cool thing to do give credit to Radiohead for a prog revival which perhaps does reinforce the opinion put forward that he is a somewhat insecure person who needs to be seen as 'with it'.
Edited by richardh - August 08 2012 at 14:11
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136
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Posted: August 08 2012 at 12:17 |
Morsenator wrote:
I also got introduced to prog mostly through internet, DT and Symphony X while I was 16, I think. Even if neither are among my favourite bands now (though I still like both bands' best albums quite a bit) their impact on my musical taste has been huge.
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The world is indeed a different place, there I was at 16, saving my pennies to buy another gate-fold vinyl album, possibly by ELP or Yes, my listening curve was from Genesis - I saw them live with Hackett - Earls Court in 1977, through Camel, to ELP, Yes and a little bit of Floyd, then the neo-prog scene hit and Marillion, IQ, Pallas, Pendragon, Twelfth Night, Tamarisk, As Above So below, Haze...Best Gig - Possiby Pallas at a tiny place called the Gallery in Manchester where in front of a handful of fans they performed a 50-60 minute bombastic epic which included an extended - Rise of Atlantis through - March on Atlantis merging into Atlantis with a lot of the themes from east west and other stuff as well. The Gutar solo at the end was possibly the best I've ever seen live.....Fantstic - Oh and Steve Wilsons first band - Karma.....
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Steven Wilson Vs. Roine Stolt
