Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Steven Wilson Vs. Roine Stolt
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedSteven Wilson Vs. Roine Stolt
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1011121314 19>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
prog4evr View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 22 2005
Location: Wuhan, China
Status: Offline
Points: 1455 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2012 at 21:18
Originally posted by Mirror Image Mirror Image wrote:

Originally posted by prog4evr prog4evr wrote:

Originally posted by Mirror Image Mirror Image wrote:

Now, those that read this, what do you think about it? Who's right? Who's wrong?
First of all, who gives a f**k?  Secondly - Stolt is awesome beyond words...

Evidently you do or else you wouldn't have posted on this thread. LOL
Touche!  You caught me in a drunken rage.  You are right - I do care...

P.S.  I totally agree on your adulation of Shostakovich!  I would add Rachmaninov to him as well...


Edited by prog4evr - August 05 2012 at 21:19
Back to Top
[email protected] View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: November 25 2008
Location: Goode Va
Status: Offline
Points: 2 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2012 at 19:32
I have been a PT/SW fan since 2003. PT nor SW is progressive rock, though elements exist therein. If you listen to PT live at XM I , he catalogs the band quite well. He is a talented song writer/performer. He writes mostly dark material that is far from what progressive rock is all about.
SW solo efforts are good but not PT quality. The other musicians of PT carry the music over the weaker parts. Not true in his solo efforts. The experimental parts of the solo works offer the opportunity to get out side of the PT footprint.
I hope his employment in remastering some of the classic works has not caused his ego to get out of control. The interview in question seems to give that idea credence. 
His Dad died before the second solo album, and probably had a lot to do with its tone. I hope he has recovered from the loss.

I hope he can return to earth, use his ability to write great melodies, and write some brighter compositions. He has the potential to be among the most memorable composers of his day.  
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2012 at 19:24
Originally posted by Ytse_Jam Ytse_Jam wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Wetton did comment once at length about how a lot of modern prog wasn't very progressive anymore
I didn't read that comment, but seems like Wetton and Wilson share the same opinion. The difference is that SW explicitly focuses his attention on a particular type of modern prog ("retro prog") while Wetton does not. I may be wrong, though..

I would say Wetton was even more harsh in his judgment for he saw right through Thrak and pooh-poohed it in comparison to the LTIA-years.   However, his tone throughout was respectful and devoid of the cribbing element in Wilson's comments.   FWIW, I don't agree with the turn that this discussion has taken - that musicians cannot judge what is and what is not progressive or people like richardh are the death of prog for disliking TFK.  This is rubbish, people are entitled to like or dislike music as per their preferences.  I have said earlier on too that I don't see anything wrong with Wilson judging TFK as retro, he just shouldn't try to blame them for supposedly bringing down prog.
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 29452 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2012 at 12:52
Originally posted by Mirror Image Mirror Image wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

No one can actually define exactly what is 'progressive music' least of all Steven who obviously has his own agenda. Its the fans that decide what is progressive not the musicians. You pays your money you takes your choice is an old adage and one I adhere to. Another way of putting it is the public gets the public wants and if the puiblic wants recycled prog then there were always be artists like Stolt happy to deliver it.

The fans don't decide anything. The fans also don't dictate what a band does or will ever do. I think you're reasoning here, especially in regards to Stolt is pretty damn negative. If anybody is the death of progressive rock, it's YOU.
not given the amount of money I spend on prog it isn't
 
I downloaded (regrettably) the new TFK album and its just the usual heartless stuff that I will doubt I will want to revisit.Stolt knows his market oh too well. Music needs to be driven by something other than formulas imo.
Back to Top
Ytse_Jam View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 08 2011
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 502 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2012 at 11:51
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Wetton did comment once at length about how a lot of modern prog wasn't very progressive anymore
I didn't read that comment, but seems like Wetton and Wilson share the same opinion. The difference is that SW explicitly focuses his attention on a particular type of modern prog ("retro prog") while Wetton does not. I may be wrong, though..
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2012 at 11:16
...and interestingly, Wetton felt the climate in which he could pull off ambitious improvisations in concert with KC didn't really exist anymore in the 90s (when the interview was published) and they had to restrict themselves to more modest stuff.  Quite the opposite of what Wilson suggests, it would appear.
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2012 at 11:11
Actually, if it was just about defining what is and what is not progressive music, this would hardly be such a contentious issue.   As I mentioned before, Wetton did comment once at length about how a lot of modern prog wasn't very progressive anymore and it had become about a genre and all that but he didn't talk about bands hurting the movement by choosing to play 'retro'.  It is irrelevant here what Wilson thinks or does not think is progressive.
Back to Top
Guldbamsen View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2012 at 10:37
I know, but if we're going to have another one of these, then let's discuss it outside a framework that started out as a negative interaction between two people who are not evenly matched. Let's face it, Steven is a native speaker of the lingo, whereas Roine is Swedish.
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
Back to Top
Ytse_Jam View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 08 2011
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 502 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2012 at 10:33
Implicitly, this whole discussion in based on the "what's prog" topic and, actually, even SW and RS emails argue about this very topic in the end..
Back to Top
Guldbamsen View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23104 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2012 at 10:06
Let's cool it here peopleYing Yang

As mentioned earlier, this was 7 years ago - and no matter how you slice it, there's always going to be somebody out there with a different idea of what progressive means, constitutes and entails. Seems odd to revitalise old heated discussions between two of the most successful musicians inside our respected 'genre'. 
Prog is prog, but what is prog and how do you spot the real thing?Dead Let's not go there...

Personally, I don't hear anything really progressive in either of these guys' catalogues, but I do however enjoy Swilson's work far more. I'll go as far to say that I love it. 

I think it is dangerously narrow minded to slap on a 'progressive' sticker on something just because one thinks it's good. I think we've all seen that in the suggestions department here on PA..... I am not referring to anybody here. 

It seems to me that a lot of folks visit this thread to fight for their hero - or just campaign against the 'villain' and that kind of defeats the purpose of the thing imo. It's allright to vent ones distaste for what Steven stated, but turning this thread into another endless 'what is prog' thing, surely is uncalled for.
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
Back to Top
Mirror Image View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 13 2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2111 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2012 at 09:34
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

No one can actually define exactly what is 'progressive music' least of all Steven who obviously has his own agenda. Its the fans that decide what is progressive not the musicians. You pays your money you takes your choice is an old adage and one I adhere to. Another way of putting it is the public gets the public wants and if the puiblic wants recycled prog then there were always be artists like Stolt happy to deliver it.

The fans don't decide anything. The fans also don't dictate what a band does or will ever do. I think you're reasoning here, especially in regards to Stolt is pretty damn negative. If anybody is the death of progressive rock, it's YOU.
“Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov
Back to Top
brainstormer View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 20 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
Status: Offline
Points: 887 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2012 at 09:12
Many great composers have had hard words about other
musicians.  Read some classical music biographies.  I think
Bach was a very critical person of lesser rate musicians
and composers, if I remember correctly.  Christian Vander also
at one time supposedly didn't have much respect for many other
bands.  It seems when you are trying to do something new, you
really have to distract yourself away from other more well-known forms.
I think the "fan-boy" or "fan-girl" syndrome can come into play.
That was OK for me in high school, but as I got older, I realized
that I had to focus on my own music more, and have a reason why
it was special.  I think this is the kind of thinking that Wilson is
having, not that I've ever really heard his music.  There is so much
hype around more popular music, even more popular prog, and
one has to ask oneself, "is this really what I want to hear deep
in my heart?  Is this really causing my soul to grow?"
--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net


Back to Top
kole View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 15 2009
Location: Slovenia
Status: Offline
Points: 296 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2012 at 06:58
First you say: Its the fans that decide what is progressive not the musicians.
And then you go on saying: if the puiblic wants recycled prog then there were always be artists like Stolt happy to deliver it.

This pretty much confirms that fans DO NOT decide what is progressive. But I don't want to turn this into another What is progressive rock thread.
Back to Top
richardh View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 29452 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2012 at 04:39
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Wilson's comments have really upset people by the looks of it.
For me he is just stating an opinion like anyone on here expresses an opinion about what they like and don't like. Is that really arrogant? This is a public forum and anyone can read the comments so why is SW guilty of being a raving ego maniac for having an opinion and expressing it in public? After all you can vote with your feet. Just don't buy his music if it really bothers you that much.


Because he has framed his opinion in a manner that almost seems to blame Flower Kings and their like for prog rock getting bad press and hurting awesome progressive bands like his, which would supposedly fare better without this prejudice being reinforced.   I quote again:

"Bands like the Flower Kings and Transatlantic? The DEATH of
progressive music. These are the bands that reinforce every prejudice
people have about progressive rock"

It's not too far off from accusing these bands of doing something detrimental to the interests of other prog rock artists.  I am absolutely fine with his next para, which is just a dissection of their music and if TFK fans won't like it, that can't be helped.  He could have done without the "death of progressive music" part though.....in my opinion.  Wink
I think you are correct. No one can actually define exactly what is 'progressive music' least of all Steven who obviously has his own agenda. Its the fans that decide what is progressive not the musicians. You pays your money you takes your choice is an old adage and one I adhere to. Another way of putting it is the public gets the public wants and if the puiblic wants recycled prog then there were always be artists like Stolt happy to deliver it.
Back to Top
Mirror Image View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 13 2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2111 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2012 at 21:41
Originally posted by prog4evr prog4evr wrote:

Originally posted by Mirror Image Mirror Image wrote:

Now, those that read this, what do you think about it? Who's right? Who's wrong?
First of all, who gives a f**k?  Secondly - Stolt is awesome beyond words...

Evidently you do or else you wouldn't have posted on this thread. LOL
“Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov
Back to Top
IMPF View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie


Joined: February 15 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 73 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2012 at 21:25
Roine Stolt. I'm a big fan of both Porcupine Tree and The Flower Kings, and while I musically do prefer PT to TFK, Steven Wilson has just about always been the biggest douchebag in the universe, and this is no exception. 
Back to Top
prog4evr View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 22 2005
Location: Wuhan, China
Status: Offline
Points: 1455 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2012 at 17:21
Originally posted by Mirror Image Mirror Image wrote:

Now, those that read this, what do you think about it? Who's right? Who's wrong?
First of all, who gives a f**k?  Secondly - Stolt is awesome beyond words...
Back to Top
appudds View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 25 2012
Location: Chennai, India
Status: Offline
Points: 101 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2012 at 13:39
Even though progressive rock is about experimenting by adding new elements into the music, you just cannot criticize bands just because they want to recreate the past. There are 2 types of prog bands. Those who want to innovate and those who want to recreate. Both are equally important for the progressive scene. I am surprised a guy like Steven couldn't think of that. 
Back to Top
napoca View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie
Avatar

Joined: March 08 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 24 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2012 at 09:10
I've read all comments and I have the impression that something is missing, overlooked. We have a clear question from an interviewer:
"As far as progressive rock goes and had gone, what do you feel about what's happening now? What do you think needs to happen for it to survive?"
 
and we have a blunt answer from the interviewed:
 
"OK, I think that answer is very simple: bands like Mars Volta. Tool and Radiohead - these bands are the future of progressive music. Bands like Flower Kings and Transatlantic? The DEATH of progressive music."
 
Now if the interviewer was George Clooney,  Mother Tereza or Ronaldo, I would have understand such an answer: nothing else than a personal oppinion based maybe on personal tastes in music, but when the interviewer is a musician involved in that particular scene, that raise elbows. And he continues:
 
"But there's a new wave of bands that for me are being influenced just as much by hip-hop as they are by King Crimson or Godspeed You Black Emperor and bands like us as well, I hope".
 
Really Steve? So basicly bands influenced by yourself are the future? But there is something else though, the question was about progressive rock but the answer seems to avoid it and talk about some "progressive music" (?!). What progressive music Steve? Music as a general term? Well in this regard even rap was progressive because it brought something new in music, an aproach never heard before, didn't it?
 

"For me, being progressive is about taking the word at face value: if a band is going to try to be progressive, they shouldn't be looking at the past - they should be looking at everything that's going on around them now, from hip-hop to trip-hop to death metal to trance. The word 'progressive' is about the FUTURE."

 

Go ahead Steve, incorporate hip-hop, trip-hop (what the heck is that?), death metal (maybe you should drink only frozen beverages for a month and start to growl) and trance and make PT a "progressive" music act. You won't be the first neither the last to loose fans (myself included) and gain some new audience. I don't try to ban anything here and I don't try to say something is good and something is bad, but I think we are talking here about diferent things.

 

I personally don't care what somebody has to say about the music I love, even if that person is a respected musician. I love progressive rock and not progressive music, and the discussion here is about about rock that progressed and is still progressing, and not blues, classical, country, electronic, disco, pop, ambient, RIO and whatever (try to say progressive-blues, progressive-disco, progressive-pop etc, does it make sense?). Progressive rock was and is primary about rock, and rock is a genre by itself. And progresive rock is and it will be its peak, in regard of a limied genre.

 


Edited by napoca - August 04 2012 at 12:29
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2012 at 07:05
Originally posted by Nov Nov wrote:




What Steven Wilson conveniently forgets is that Roine was there as a teenager in the 70s with Kaipa. He is very much the Swedish Steve Hackett or Andy Latimer (in my opinion) and so he has every right to continue to produce the type of music that he helped innovate in the same way that Steve Hackett still does. 





Not quite, he didn't.  The first Kaipa album was released in 1975 and I believe the band themselves formed only in 1974.  That's already the tail end of 70s symph prog, for all practical purposes.  Gabriel had already left Genesis, Yes were on a hiatus and ELP's most celebrated album had been released by then.  So while Stolt did play prog rock in the 70s, he was always in the shadow of the Hacketts and Howes and not nearly as pivotal in shaping the direction of symph prog as they were.  I am not taking away his right to play whatever he likes, by the way; even if he wasn't from the 70s, he would still be entitled to make prog in the 70s style as a citizen of the free world. 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 1011121314 19>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.271 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.