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Ytse_Jam 
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Joined: December 08 2011
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 Posted: August 03 2012 at 16:43 |
 gusmao72 wrote:
One thing is to borrow various influences and incorporate them seamlessly and in a natural way to create fresh sounding music. Another thing is to paste and cut influences artificially, hoping that it sounds proggy. |
TFK do have their personal style, defining their music as a copy-paste is quite superficial. And yes, they do sound prog to me. Not the ONE and ONLY type of prog allowed, but for sure a part of it.
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darkshade
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 16:36 |
Yea, you can easily break down even the most original act. Let's take The Mars Volta as an example. 1 part punk 1 part Latin music 1 part Robert Fripp 1 part jazz-fusion 1 part psychedelia 1 part electronic (more recently)
Doesn't look so original now.
On the The Flower Kings/Transatlantic thing: I don't pretend they're not highly influenced by the likes of Yes, ELP, or even King Crimson and Genesis, in fact, there's nothing wrong with that. But that's not to say that TFK and TA, or their peers, haven't done anything to progress the symphonic prog genre. Take The Flower King's epic hour-long suite "Garden of Dreams". That epic goes in directions that Yes and ELP would never have dreamed of going. The musical landscapes are much bigger, and even more colorful. TFK, also have a nice jazz slant to their music, which the classic bands did not, for the most part. A TFK-related band, Karmakanic, actually do experiment with their sound, and have actually changed things up throughout their 4 current albums, even though they are symphonic prog. Jonas Reingold has even stated in a recent interview that, and I paraphrase, "It's good to at least have a couple songs each album where we try new things, songs that are actually progressive". Maybe these bands aren't progressing the genre all the time, and they never claim to be 'future of progressive rock', but to say that they make the same album every time is a little extreme (unless it's Neal Morse  ).
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 16:36 |
Horizons wrote:
sleeper wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
I think you hit the nail on the head John. Prog fans are more than anything, people who reside outside of the popular music spheres, and even if most of us whine about not having anybody to share our musical tastes with, at least in real life, - I think we revel in the mystical and selfserving underdog status that naturally comes with the territory. Then we get to know the prog circles better and better, and suddenly this underdog thing barks again and we start digging even deeper for something obscure and unknown. Why? It's simply cool to listen to music nobody else does. Well that is part of the equation I think. The underdog attitude still pushes us forward to find new under the radar music, and when you finally get there, bands like PT and DT suddenly feel enormous - especially due to the constant free advertising they get from people who just happened to stumble over one of their albums and then got to know the word prog. We are constantly reminded of these big bands, and even if they are far from being the huge billionaire acts some of us see them as, they still stand for something that is corporate and big business like. So it becomes 'cool' to hate on these bands - even if they still carry the torch of our much beloved music and continue to draw people in to progressive waters, where they probably at some point will get to know about all those other bands that deserve much more recognition, because they are more underground...? Bollocks!
Oh and this is coming from a guy who revels in the obscure and out there... |
I actually think you are spot on here - at least I've noticed many people seem to hate on the more well known Prog acts and when you look at some of the other music they have given 5 stars to, the only logical explanation is that they don't like these artists because they've been successful. I myself has always loved Prog simply because I love the music, and I've always hoped that the bands I loved WOULD make it big someday. I want them to be successful, and I want more people to know about them.
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That first sentence is complete and utter bollocks, most people on here rate according to their taste and if they have given popular bands low ratings, it's because they dont like them, and the opposite is true of less known bands with high ratings.
The last two sentences are the kind of thing that all but the most elitist of snobs would express, we want bands we like to do well so that they can keep on making the music we like.
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Thank you for pointing out that garbage. He needs to learn that people have different tastes. |
LOL, see my massively updated post (I knew I took too long typing  ).
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Horizons
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 16:31 |
sleeper wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
I think you hit the nail on the head John. Prog fans are more than anything, people who reside outside of the popular music spheres, and even if most of us whine about not having anybody to share our musical tastes with, at least in real life, - I think we revel in the mystical and selfserving underdog status that naturally comes with the territory. Then we get to know the prog circles better and better, and suddenly this underdog thing barks again and we start digging even deeper for something obscure and unknown. Why? It's simply cool to listen to music nobody else does. Well that is part of the equation I think. The underdog attitude still pushes us forward to find new under the radar music, and when you finally get there, bands like PT and DT suddenly feel enormous - especially due to the constant free advertising they get from people who just happened to stumble over one of their albums and then got to know the word prog. We are constantly reminded of these big bands, and even if they are far from being the huge billionaire acts some of us see them as, they still stand for something that is corporate and big business like. So it becomes 'cool' to hate on these bands - even if they still carry the torch of our much beloved music and continue to draw people in to progressive waters, where they probably at some point will get to know about all those other bands that deserve much more recognition, because they are more underground...? Bollocks!
Oh and this is coming from a guy who revels in the obscure and out there... |
I actually think you are spot on here - at least I've noticed many people seem to hate on the more well known Prog acts and when you look at some of the other music they have given 5 stars to, the only logical explanation is that they don't like these artists because they've been successful. I myself has always loved Prog simply because I love the music, and I've always hoped that the bands I loved WOULD make it big someday. I want them to be successful, and I want more people to know about them.
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That first sentence is complete and utter bollocks, most people on here rate according to their taste and if they have given popular bands low ratings, it's because they dont like them, and the opposite is true of less known bands with high ratings.
The last two sentences are the kind of thing that all but the most elitist of snobs would express, we want bands we like to do well so that they can keep on making the music we like.
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DtGuitarFan still doesn't realize that tastes differ as much as bands differ. To say that people hate on popular prog acts (LIKE DREAM THEATER OH NO) just because of their success is , like you said, bullocks (bullsh*t).
Edited by Horizons - August 03 2012 at 17:13
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 09 2005
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 16:25 |
dtguitarfan wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
I think you hit the nail on the head John. Prog fans are more than anything, people who reside outside of the popular music spheres, and even if most of us whine about not having anybody to share our musical tastes with, at least in real life, - I think we revel in the mystical and selfserving underdog status that naturally comes with the territory. Then we get to know the prog circles better and better, and suddenly this underdog thing barks again and we start digging even deeper for something obscure and unknown. Why? It's simply cool to listen to music nobody else does. Well that is part of the equation I think. The underdog attitude still pushes us forward to find new under the radar music, and when you finally get there, bands like PT and DT suddenly feel enormous - especially due to the constant free advertising they get from people who just happened to stumble over one of their albums and then got to know the word prog. We are constantly reminded of these big bands, and even if they are far from being the huge billionaire acts some of us see them as, they still stand for something that is corporate and big business like. So it becomes 'cool' to hate on these bands - even if they still carry the torch of our much beloved music and continue to draw people in to progressive waters, where they probably at some point will get to know about all those other bands that deserve much more recognition, because they are more underground...? Bollocks!
Oh and this is coming from a guy who revels in the obscure and out there... |
I actually think you are spot on here - at least I've noticed many people seem to hate on the more well known Prog acts and when you look at some of the other music they have given 5 stars to, the only logical explanation is that they don't like these artists because they've been successful. I myself has always loved Prog simply because I love the music, and I've always hoped that the bands I loved WOULD make it big someday. I want them to be successful, and I want more people to know about them.
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That first sentence is complete and utter bollocks, most people on here rate according to their taste and if they have given popular bands low ratings, it's because they dont like them, and the opposite is true of less known bands with high ratings. This goes back to my previous post in this thread, because a band is more well known it is likely to have had people that wont like them check them out, sometimes extensively, just to find out what they hype is about. The more obscure bands tend to be obscure for a reason, they appeal to a much smaller audiance and tend to be specifically searched for by people who know that there is a good chance they will like the music. This is also linked to the fact that prog is such a broad term that two people can like completely different bands with little crossover in their tastes whilst both still being considered Prog fans. You and Triceratopsoil are perfect examples of this. The last two sentences are the kind of thing that all but the most elitist of snobs would express, we want bands we like to do well so that they can keep on making the music we like, and people also like to share this experience with like-minded people.
Edited by sleeper - August 03 2012 at 16:35
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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gusmao72
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Joined: July 21 2012
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 16:21 |
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One thing is to borrow various influences and incorporate them seamlessly and in a natural way to create fresh sounding music. Another thing is to paste and cut influences artificially, hoping that it sounds proggy.
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Ytse_Jam
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 08 2011
Location: Italy
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Points: 502
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 16:13 |
richardh wrote:
''All musicians owe a debt to other musicians'' just means that we all owe a debt to what comes before.So its okay to copy then and not be inspired? |
What he's trying to say (or at least I think he is) is that even the most innovative artists gets inspiration from an existing band/genre. Even those band who are considered giants of prog like Genesis or Yes have had to start from something, to get inspired by something already existing. Wasn't prog born from psychedelic music, jazz and classical stuff? Innovation in his pure form is impossible. Come on, it's like saying King Crimson weren't prog because guitars and drums had already been used by other bands so they're just copying from them :D.. Hovewer, it's quite clear that 70s band and TFK are not comparable in terms of innovation. Actually, TFK have not innovated the prog scene so much, but they are still prog to me. I mean, if we really don't consider prog those bands who take inspiration from past bands without being strongly innovative, well.. Then we should delete more than a half of this website's database I guess. By the way, I've never agreed with SW's definition of prog and never liked SW's music. This is just my stinky opinion, but my vote goes to Roine.
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gusmao72
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 16:04 |
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Although Steven's comment came out as very rude, i totally agree with him. These two bands have never sounded original or unique, even if the songs are good. They are stuck in a particular style, clinging to this formula of writing 30 minute songs that sound exactly like ELP or Yes. I think what he was trying to say is that those bands are not breaking any ground in any way, and are just perpetuating an established genre of music, which is contrary to the true meaning of "being progressive". Now, bands like Mars Volta and Tool don't sound like anything you've heard before, as did Yes when they started out. THESE are TRULY "progressive" bands.
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Triceratopsoil
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 15:51 |
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Keith Emerson invented classical music
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 14:57 |
Epignosis wrote:
richardh wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
I'm sorry I have not read the thread, but I read the excerpt from the interview.
I agree with Stolt, but not for the reasons he mentions.
When I think of "progressive music," I think of music that progresses in and of itself: That is to say, a piece of music that is adventurous or dynamic, as opposed to pure pop which has a verse and a chorus. Progressive music for me is that which explores rather than just entertains.
The definition Wilson gives that progressive artists must in some way "progress" (i.e., find something new and venture into new styles) has always been silly to me. Some bands do very well with that (King Crimson, er Bob Fripp, made a career out of it, but he is the exception here, and a likely one since KC was hardly ever the same band at all). Imagine if Yes had, after Fragile, took what they had stylistically as a band and made disco (an emergent genre at the time): Would that have been considered progressive rock? Well, many bands went toward popular music (and disco!) and progressive rock fans have regarded many of those albums as rubbish. What progressive rock fans wanted was more of what they had fallen in love with. Hence the rise of "Neo-Prog" bands like Marillion and IQ. They were doing in the 1980s what Yes and Genesis ceased to do.
So no, Steve. I don't want my prog to sound like Nickelback, thank you very much. I want bands to make the music they want to make, and I will continue to be the judge and jury with respect to their product.
Derivative trumps boring anyway, I say.
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very well put but the problem that many have is that modern neo or symph prog is just copying something that has already been done rather than trying to forge a new way or approach. ELP ,Yes and Genesis never copied other bands.
You comment about Yes not changing style after Fragile and so invalidating themselves as 'progressive rock'. Yes created the syle and they owned it so why should they then change? Flower Kings and nowadays Glass Hammer seem to be trying just to replicate it. Pointless unless they are going to improve it and that is simply not going to happen.Yes on the other hand looked to improve what they were doing up to Relayer at least. After that I think some criticism is deserved. They were not untouchable!
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I don't have time to respond to the whole post, but I have to address this before I go.
ELP, Yes, and Genesis were all to one degree or another "copying" other bands.
I know when I started I would have been happy to sound like the Beatles or Joe Tex or whoever. You want to sound like most bands, you want to sound like their records and that's how you learn your chops. - Jon Anderson
ELP essentially sprang from an earlier band called The Nice and Emerson's desire to do renditions of classical pieces (that's not exactly original, is it?).
Genesis began as pretty much a pop band.
So no, Yes did not "create" a style. TFK and GH won't "improve" a style because stuffy codgers would never allow them to. No musical style exists in the background. All musicians owe a debt to other musicians. This is inescapable.
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Emerson only 'copied' (actually he plainly didn't) a band that he had created himself.
Yes started off wanting to be the Beach Boys but 'evolved' or 'changed' or whatever word is best suited. Roine Stolt and the like don't seem that interested in change or evolution
Genesis began as a pop band. Your point is what?
Yes created something very distinct it seems to me as near as you can be to nailing down 'progressive rock' as a style. You claim they didn't create a style but don't offer any reason to support that.
''All musicians owe a debt to other musicians'' just means that we all owe a debt to what comes before.So its okay to copy then and not be inspired?
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mono
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 13:27 |
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If Steven Wilson were a music critic, I would agree with him to a certain extent (and it is quite common to see music critics become "agressive" about old-fashioned bands).
In his case, he is being a bit of a douchebag, as his work is far from being completey "useful" for the future of progressive music. He has made so many poppish songs that could have been written ten to twenty years before, that we cannot have this attitude towards TA, TFK or Neal Morse.
I personnly can't listen to Transatlantic or Morse anymore, they bore the hell out of me, and listen to PT much more often. But that's my taste!
These guys are not the death of progressive rock, they are a branch that did not evolve so much in sound and creativity compared to the seventies (IMO, and left apart the tech advances that lead to have a "cleaner" sound), but what's wrong with that?? It's just a pause in time, and noone can say that being completely new is a must-rule. I personnally like that in a band (surprise, new elements, new sounds, etc...), but I can bvery well understand why (very intellegent and cultured) people listen to TFK, Neal Morse or Transatlantic!
Music doesn't always have to be about who's the next icon of the genre. I think that I tend to look for originality mainly beacuse I am a musician (which I think is at the same time a curse and a blessing for music-listenning, other topic...)
So please come down from your cardboard pedestal M. Wilson and just keep making your music as you like to. Let others enjoy what they like.
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https://soundcloud.com/why-music Prog trio, from ambiant to violence
https://soundcloud.com/m0n0-film Film music and production projects
https://soundcloud.com/fadisaliba (almost) everything else
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dtguitarfan
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 13:18 |
Guldbamsen wrote:
I think you hit the nail on the head John. Prog fans are more than anything, people who reside outside of the popular music spheres, and even if most of us whine about not having anybody to share our musical tastes with, at least in real life, - I think we revel in the mystical and selfserving underdog status that naturally comes with the territory. Then we get to know the prog circles better and better, and suddenly this underdog thing barks again and we start digging even deeper for something obscure and unknown. Why? It's simply cool to listen to music nobody else does. Well that is part of the equation I think. The underdog attitude still pushes us forward to find new under the radar music, and when you finally get there, bands like PT and DT suddenly feel enormous - especially due to the constant free advertising they get from people who just happened to stumble over one of their albums and then got to know the word prog. We are constantly reminded of these big bands, and even if they are far from being the huge billionaire acts some of us see them as, they still stand for something that is corporate and big business like. So it becomes 'cool' to hate on these bands - even if they still carry the torch of our much beloved music and continue to draw people in to progressive waters, where they probably at some point will get to know about all those other bands that deserve much more recognition, because they are more underground...? Bollocks!
Oh and this is coming from a guy who revels in the obscure and out there... |
I actually think you are spot on here - at least I've noticed many people seem to hate on the more well known Prog acts and when you look at some of the other music they have given 5 stars to, the only logical explanation is that they don't like these artists because they've been successful. I myself has always loved Prog simply because I love the music, and I've always hoped that the bands I loved WOULD make it big someday. I want them to be successful, and I want more people to know about them.
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shomanca
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 11:13 |
mister nobody wrote:
God, Roine could use some English courses. |
How is your Swedish, by the way...?
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 11:10 |
^ That is, of course, also another factor
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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sleeper
Prog Reviewer
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 10:19 |
Guldbamsen wrote:
Maybe I expressed myself clumsily, but I don't necessarily think people listen to music because of its underdog status, - like I said it was only part of the equation, but I do think they form opinions about music due to it. Most of the times, the big bands feel the result of this. |
Well, there's also the fact that because they are more well known they are more likely to come across large numbers of people that wont like them, which is not going to be such a problem for Cheer-Accident and others.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Mellotron Storm
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 10:15 |
^ Well said David. I see the word Prog quite often in the Toronto Sun newspaper because the reviewer there uses it when he reviews Rush, Tool, Dream Theater, Mastadon, Muse etc. And yes these are gateway bands to Prog, in fact Fates Warning was my gateway into Prog.
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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 09:59 |
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Maybe I expressed myself clumsily, but I don't necessarily think people listen to music because of its underdog status, - like I said it was only part of the equation, but I do think they form opinions about music due to it. Most of the times, the big bands feel the result of this.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Mirror Image
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 09:55 |
Guldbamsen wrote:
I think you hit the nail on the head John. Prog fans are more than anything, people who reside outside of the popular music spheres, and even if most of us whine about not having anybody to share our musical tastes with, at least in real life, - I think we revel in the mystical and selfserving underdog status that naturally comes with the territory. Then we get to know the prog circles better and better, and suddenly this underdog thing barks again and we start digging even deeper for something obscure and unknown. Why? It's simply cool to listen to music nobody else does. Well that is part of the equation I think. The underdog attitude still pushes us forward to find new under the radar music, and when you finally get there, bands like PT and DT suddenly feel enormous - especially due to the constant free advertising they get from people who just happened to stumble over one of their albums and then got to know the word prog. We are constantly reminded of these big bands, and even if they are far from being the huge billionaire acts some of us see them as, they still stand for something that is corporate and big business like. So it becomes 'cool' to hate on these bands - even if they still carry the torch of our much beloved music and continue to draw people in to progressive waters, where they probably at some point will get to know about all those other bands that deserve much more recognition, because they are more underground...? Bollocks!
Oh and this is coming from a guy who revels in the obscure and out there... |
Some valid points, but I certainly don't relate to your comment about the whole 'underdog status' thing. I could careless if one of the bands I like are well-known or not known at all. I've ALWAYS listened to music that all my friends never heard of because I was exposed to this music when I was a kid. What I thought was part of the norm was actually not, so when I would talk about Genesis or King Crimson with my friends they would just give me blank stares. People listen to music they like regardless of it's popularity. If people listened to music because it was the 'underdog' thing to do then I think they would be listening for the wrong reasons. It all starts with exposure. From there, people can follow their heart's desire or they can just simply listen to music that they truly deep down inside of them don't care anything about.
Edited by Mirror Image - August 03 2012 at 09:56
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“Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov
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Guldbamsen
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 09:41 |
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I think you hit the nail on the head John. Prog fans are more than anything, people who reside outside of the popular music spheres, and even if most of us whine about not having anybody to share our musical tastes with, at least in real life, - I think we revel in the mystical and selfserving underdog status that naturally comes with the territory. Then we get to know the prog circles better and better, and suddenly this underdog thing barks again and we start digging even deeper for something obscure and unknown. Why? It's simply cool to listen to music nobody else does. Well that is part of the equation I think. The underdog attitude still pushes us forward to find new under the radar music, and when you finally get there, bands like PT and DT suddenly feel enormous - especially due to the constant free advertising they get from people who just happened to stumble over one of their albums and then got to know the word prog. We are constantly reminded of these big bands, and even if they are far from being the huge billionaire acts some of us see them as, they still stand for something that is corporate and big business like. So it becomes 'cool' to hate on these bands - even if they still carry the torch of our much beloved music and continue to draw people in to progressive waters, where they probably at some point will get to know about all those other bands that deserve much more recognition, because they are more underground...? Bollocks!
Oh and this is coming from a guy who revels in the obscure and out there...
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
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Mellotron Storm
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 09:18 |
The T wrote:
Mellotron Storm wrote:
The T wrote:
Steven Wilson is rather close to an imbecile when he opens his mouth. When he shuts up and plays his little simple instruments he fares way better.
Anyway, if what he's being doing recently is supposed to be the real standard for real "progressive" rock, count me out of that stupid train. Porcupine Tree is rather always good (except the last album) but Wilson's multiple projects in recent years all make me yawn and get sleepy.
And that's beside the point. He just showed he's a child. He looks like a child, and acts like a child.
I've always said: that one person is extremely good at something doesn't mean they are extremely good at giving opinions, or even that they're intelligent. |
Are we talking about the same person here ? Unless your only example is this 7 year old interview which does make him look immature i'd love to see them.
Any interviews i've read with him have been nothing but intelligent and thoughtful. Whether it's about progressive music in general or his work in the studio re-mixing King Crimson, ELP or Jethro Tull he always has my full attention.
The fact most of his music makes you yawn and sleepy is simply your tastes just like classical music bores the hell out of me, no ones right or wrong it's just opinions and tastes my friend. |
It's the second or third time he has given pompous interviews. This time he borders on idiocy. But he has shown to be arrogant many times.
Yes, part of what I said was based on my tastes. That doesn't make my very last sentence wrong. It applies perfectly to this case and to the persona of Steven Wilson. |
Well again i've never seen a pompous interview with Wilson except the one this thread is based on and i've read most(i think). If you can give me links i'd appreciate it.  Otherwise it's just sour grapes. It seems like when a band or person becomes successful in Prog they become a target. I don't get it especially when Wilson and the more successful Dream Theater do nothing but promote progressive music. Dream Theater have been the whipping boys on this site since i joined and so i thought you would be sensitive to that T.
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"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"
"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Steven Wilson Vs. Roine Stolt
