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Joined: November 16 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 864
Posted: June 23 2012 at 14:09
The Dark Elf wrote:
...wretched internet masterdebater ...a real knee-slapper back when PCs ran on DOS.
Nice!
The Dark Elf wrote:
Tell me again... VdGG was not just another middling band that imploded because no one gave a damn for them
Nah, there's no point. VdGG will survive the insults of a frustrated blogger named the Dark Dwarf whose musings go unread. Truth be told, though, I looked through the blog. You're actually not a bad writer, and if you tightened things up a bit you could even be a very good one. So don't give up!
Joined: December 25 2011
Location: internet
Status: Offline
Points: 2549
Posted: June 23 2012 at 15:00
rogerthat wrote:
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
And everyone knows that well-formed fingernails make a more pleasing sound on a chalkboard.
Eeek. But I do also like Hammill's nails better. He's got the voice to pull off his angry act, while Waters is hit-or-miss imo. Waters loved singing above his register, I think, and that doesn't help matters. I think man for man, VDGG had the better musicians in terms of technical skill, leaving aside that they didn't have a specialist guitarist, but I remember their sound well rather than their compositions which are rather rambling affairs to my ears.
I personally like Waters' voice, even his out-of-range squealing. I absolutely love Hammil's voice as well. Although I understand when people find particular voices to be irritating, I can't help thinking that if they'd merely take the time to get used to the voice and appreciate it for what it is, they'd learn to like the singer and appreciate his unique qualities. I can hardly think of a singer's voice (outside the mainstream) that I don't like. I think that all of the singers people complain about here are quite good, from Hammil to Labrie to Geddy and practically any others you could name. I think there's a joy in learning to appreciate the uniqueness and quirkiness of someone's voice; it's so much a part of who that person is, and is so connected to the way they emote.
Bucka and Dark Elf:
VdGG is awesome. PF is awesome. They're both great, why start a flame war about it?
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13065
Posted: June 23 2012 at 15:41
bucka001 wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
...wretched internet masterdebater ...a real knee-slapper back when PCs ran on DOS.
Nice!
The Dark Elf wrote:
Tell me again... VdGG was not just another middling band that imploded because no one gave a damn for them
Nah, there's no point. VdGG will survive the insults of a frustrated blogger named the Dark Dwarf whose musings go unread. Truth be told, though, I looked through the blog. You're actually not a bad writer, and if you tightened things up a bit you could even be a very good one. So don't give up!
It would seem more people read my blog than have bought your book, m'dear. You rank 398,896 on Amazon. This puts you just ahead of page-turners like "The Rutabaga: A History of the Venerable Vegetable" and "The Wisdom of George W. Bush, His Bestest Quotes". Of course, I would never stoop to denigrate your prose (although why it took two writers to compile a few paragraphs of material on VdGG's limited history is beyond me). More than likely about as many folks are as interested in reading about VdGG as they were in buying their albums in the 70s. I hope you have an Italian translation.
I'm having a book published in early 2013 (through a real publisher, and not some vanity edition like yours). Let's compare notes then.
Again, VdGG is a wonderful instrumental band. When they remaster the albums with the vocals removed, I might buy the whole catalog.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Joined: November 20 2006
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 7026
Posted: June 23 2012 at 16:07
The Dark Elf wrote:
bucka001 wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
...wretched internet masterdebater ...a real knee-slapper back when PCs ran on DOS.
Nice!
The Dark Elf wrote:
Tell me again... VdGG was not just another middling band that imploded because no one gave a damn for them
Nah, there's no point. VdGG will survive the insults of a frustrated blogger named the Dark Dwarf whose musings go unread. Truth be told, though, I looked through the blog. You're actually not a bad writer, and if you tightened things up a bit you could even be a very good one. So don't give up!
It would seem more people read my blog than have bought your book, m'dear. You rank 398,896 on Amazon. This puts you just ahead of page-turners like "The Rutabaga: A History of the Venerable Vegetable" and "The Wisdom of George W. Bush, His Bestest Quotes". Of course, I would never stoop to denigrate your prose (although why it took two writers to compile a few paragraphs of material on VdGG's limited history is beyond me). More than likely about as many folks are as interested in reading about VdGG as they were in buying their albums in the 70s. I hope you have an Italian translation.
I'm having a book published in early 2013 (through a real publisher, and not some vanity edition like yours). Let's compare notes then.
Again, VdGG is a wonderful instrumental band. When they remaster the albums with the vocals removed, I might buy the whole catalog.
OMG! Own goal! Twice!
He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)
Joined: November 16 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 864
Posted: June 23 2012 at 16:18
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
Bucka and Dark Elf:
VdGG is awesome. PF is awesome. They're both great, why start a flame war about it?
Fair enough, and last word (and any more if he feels the need) to Dark Elf (above) on the flame war stuff.
Our book hasn't been sold by Amazon.co.uk for several years (you can make more selling it yourself) but we did pretty good for the couple years it was sold there; when stock ran low we kept the last couple hundred to sell through the webiste. Lots of critial acclaim in the major music mags (which felt great after all the effort) and lots of $$ (the second part was a welcome surprise to me, which still pays dividends [even I'm shocked by that]). Good luck with your book, if it's one that's music related you can pm me about it (I may [or may not] have some experience that you'll find useful). I will tell you that we did have publisher interest (and this is before the reunion with all the hoopla in Britain) but, if you can afford to do it yourself (and that's a big 'if', I understand) you'll make a lot more money (if it's something people are interested in, you could do very well). I could never afford to self-publish (brother, that's an understatement) but I lucked out in that my writing partner could cover it, so we chose to do it that way (self published in Britain).
You'll have one leg up on us... Our book is a coffee table hard cover affair over 300 pages long. It's a monster and weighs a ton. A couple of indie music distributors here in the U.S. (Wayside, etc [about two or three others, but I honestly can't remember who as I didn't deal with that stuff]) wanted to stock it, but the shipping problem (and the monstrously high $$ costs) could never be solved; I never even thought about that angle but now I know. For the next one (vol 2), it'll be softcover and maybe not so long so we can get it over here! So you should probably be able to sell all over the world with no problem if you just don't make a beast like we did. To this day I regret that we never got it on Amazon.com in the U.S. because we couldn't afford to ship stock over here*. Live and learn.
*There's a Kindle edition. That's nice, but that can't be the only route you go with your book. This might sound crass to some, but there's just not that much money by going that route (I can say that because the integrity was in the interviewing and writing, so why not make a few bucks)
Joined: February 24 2012
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 58
Posted: June 23 2012 at 17:14
VdGG, without much hesitation at all. Of course I like Floyd very much, but VdGG is one of those bands that with some musical moments can make me feel like nothing else is needed in life. For example when reaching the end of Scorched Earth.
Joined: May 11 2012
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 59
Posted: June 23 2012 at 18:41
The Dark Elf wrote:
Again, VdGG is a wonderful instrumental band. When they remaster the albums with the vocals removed, I might buy the whole catalog.
So your only significant criticism of the band is the equivalent to criticizing a band because they include an instrument you don't like?
Unless there is something objectively wrong with PH's vocal performances, your criticism isn't actually much of a criticism at all. It's a description of the sorts of sounds you like to hear. I don't like the tone of electric guitar used by The Mahavishnu Orchestra but that's not something wrong with the band that makes them any more or less wonderful, that's just a fact about my taste.
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Posted: June 23 2012 at 22:16
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
And everyone knows that well-formed fingernails make a more pleasing sound on a chalkboard.
Eeek. But I do also like Hammill's nails better. He's got the voice to pull off his angry act, while Waters is hit-or-miss imo. Waters loved singing above his register, I think, and that doesn't help matters. I think man for man, VDGG had the better musicians in terms of technical skill, leaving aside that they didn't have a specialist guitarist, but I remember their sound well rather than their compositions which are rather rambling affairs to my ears.
I personally like Waters' voice, even his out-of-range squealing. I absolutely love Hammil's voice as well. Although I understand when people find particular voices to be irritating, I can't help thinking that if they'd merely take the time to get used to the voice and appreciate it for what it is, they'd learn to like the singer and appreciate his unique qualities. I can hardly think of a singer's voice (outside the mainstream) that I don't like. I think that all of the singers people complain about here are quite good, from Hammil to Labrie to Geddy and practically any others you could name. I think there's a joy in learning to appreciate the uniqueness and quirkiness of someone's voice; it's so much a part of who that person is, and is so connected to the way they emote.
I agree with most of this, so you are dialing the wrong number. I love PF and Rush for the music and I am not so crazy about the music of DT or VDGG. That doesn't stop me identifying what I like or don't like about their singers. I don't know, for me, it never detracts from the enjoyment of the music because the singer's role is imo overrated - the emotions of a song are set by the chords, melodies and textures and if those are flat, THEN you need an amazing singer to save the situation. I know some people don't like to analyze what they don't like about a band because they might end up disliking the music altogether, but it has somehow never been the case for me. I don't like Wetton's vocals on Red album by and large but it's still my favourite Western music album by some distance.
Also, I like flawed, imperfect vocals and supposedly flawed ways of playing an instrument too for that matter - I think it has an important role in rock music. But I am not sure Waters pulls it off well ALL the time (I absolutely love his delivery on One of My Turns, as I mentioned earlier)...whereas I feel Hammill is a lot more in control even when he sounds dirty.
Joined: December 25 2011
Location: internet
Status: Offline
Points: 2549
Posted: June 23 2012 at 22:37
rogerthat wrote:
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
And everyone knows that well-formed fingernails make a more pleasing sound on a chalkboard.
Eeek. But I do also like Hammill's nails better. He's got the voice to pull off his angry act, while Waters is hit-or-miss imo. Waters loved singing above his register, I think, and that doesn't help matters. I think man for man, VDGG had the better musicians in terms of technical skill, leaving aside that they didn't have a specialist guitarist, but I remember their sound well rather than their compositions which are rather rambling affairs to my ears.
I personally like Waters' voice, even his out-of-range squealing. I absolutely love Hammil's voice as well. Although I understand when people find particular voices to be irritating, I can't help thinking that if they'd merely take the time to get used to the voice and appreciate it for what it is, they'd learn to like the singer and appreciate his unique qualities. I can hardly think of a singer's voice (outside the mainstream) that I don't like. I think that all of the singers people complain about here are quite good, from Hammil to Labrie to Geddy and practically any others you could name. I think there's a joy in learning to appreciate the uniqueness and quirkiness of someone's voice; it's so much a part of who that person is, and is so connected to the way they emote.
I agree with most of this, so you are dialing the wrong number. I love PF and Rush for the music and I am not so crazy about the music of DT or VDGG. That doesn't stop me identifying what I like or don't like about their singers. I don't know, for me, it never detracts from the enjoyment of the music because the singer's role is imo overrated - the emotions of a song are set by the chords, melodies and textures and if those are flat, THEN you need an amazing singer to save the situation. I know some people don't like to analyze what they don't like about a band because they might end up disliking the music altogether, but it has somehow never been the case for me. I don't like Wetton's vocals on Red album by and large but it's still my favourite Western music album by some distance.
Also, I like flawed, imperfect vocals and supposedly flawed ways of playing an instrument too for that matter - I think it has an important role in rock music. But I am not sure Waters pulls it off well ALL the time (I absolutely love his delivery on One of My Turns, as I mentioned earlier)...whereas I feel Hammill is a lot more in control even when he sounds dirty.
Yeah...I think I just wanted to post something like that sometime, and responding to you was a good opportunity to do so . Kind of silly, I know.
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13065
Posted: June 23 2012 at 22:55
Monadology wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Again, VdGG is a wonderful instrumental band. When they remaster the albums with the vocals removed, I might buy the whole catalog.
So your only significant criticism of the band is the equivalent to criticizing a band because they include an instrument you don't like?
Unless there is something objectively wrong with PH's vocal performances, your criticism isn't actually much of a criticism at all. It's a description of the sorts of sounds you like to hear. I don't like the tone of electric guitar used by The Mahavishnu Orchestra but that's not something wrong with the band that makes them any more or less wonderful, that's just a fact about my taste.
Your line of reasoning is specious. Operas have closed overnight due to deplorable vocals. It had nothing to do with the musicians in the pit. Imagine if you liked chocolate, but unfortunately every time you bit into a piece, your teeth ground down on tinfoil or broken glass. Thus, though you may well like chocolate, alas, there is an irritant that precludes you from enjoying it
Peter Hammill's vocals are the tinfoil in my chocolate.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Posted: June 24 2012 at 01:57
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
Yeah...I think I just wanted to post something like that sometime, and responding to you was a good opportunity to do so . Kind of silly, I know.
I do that sometimes...not as much these days as I used to because I am a bit of conscious of being perceived as a self obsessed monologue machine if I do that too often. I just think aloud and post my observations, put it out there to see what somebody else thinks about it.
Joined: August 16 2011
Location: Scotland, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 327
Posted: June 24 2012 at 02:41
The Dark Elf wrote:
Peter Hammill's vocals are the tinfoil in my chocolate.
Nice turn of phrase.
I also find that, and my preference for guitars over saxophones plays a large part in my enjoyment of floyd over vdgg.
I'm not convinced by the argument that some instruments sound, subjectively, better than others invalidates that assessment.
Other people are free to hold the opposite view- and i can still find their criticism useful provided it is well articulated.
Joined: May 11 2012
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Status: Offline
Points: 59
Posted: June 24 2012 at 09:13
The Dark Elf wrote:
Monadology wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
Again, VdGG is a wonderful instrumental band. When they remaster the albums with the vocals removed, I might buy the whole catalog.
So your only significant criticism of the band is the equivalent to criticizing a band because they include an instrument you don't like?
Unless there is something objectively wrong with PH's vocal performances, your criticism isn't actually much of a criticism at all. It's a description of the sorts of sounds you like to hear. I don't like the tone of electric guitar used by The Mahavishnu Orchestra but that's not something wrong with the band that makes them any more or less wonderful, that's just a fact about my taste.
Your line of reasoning is specious. Operas have closed overnight due to deplorable vocals. It had nothing to do with the musicians in the pit. Imagine if you liked chocolate, but unfortunately every time you bit into a piece, your teeth ground down on tinfoil or broken glass. Thus, though you may well like chocolate, alas, there is an irritant that precludes you from enjoying it
Peter Hammill's vocals are the tinfoil in my chocolate.
Except that tinfoil and broken glass are unenjoyable because they aren't edible. If what PH was doing wasn't singing or wasn't musical you'd have a point. Unless you can explain what is wrong with PH's vocals such that they would be 'deplorable', it's really equivalent to being the almonds in your chocolate if you disliked almonds. Which there is nothing wrong with, until you go about using that fact to make claims about the merit of the chocolate bar.
So please, instead of continuing to make generic jabs at PH vocals (and now my reasoning), get specific or rest your case.
Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13065
Posted: June 24 2012 at 22:28
Monadology wrote:
Except that tinfoil and broken glass are unenjoyable because they aren't edible.
To me, PH is as unlistenable as tinfoil is inedible. I am wondering why you have such difficulty with the concept?
I don't not like that Peter Hamm - Ill he makes me, Sam I am!
Monadology wrote:
So please, instead of continuing to make generic jabs at PH vocals (and now my reasoning), get specific or rest your case.
I don't like his timbre, his tone, or his manic tenor. It's like Victor Frankenstein from the orginal Karloff Frankenstein movie decided that stitching electrodes on corpses was not a great career move, and so began to sing in an eccentric rock band: "It's alive! Alive!" I don't care for the overly theatrical presentation. I don't care for his high-pitched whining. I don't care for his humming along with the music. I cannot listen to VdGG while he's singing.
I rest my case.
Edited by The Dark Elf - June 24 2012 at 22:29
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Joined: November 16 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 864
Posted: June 25 2012 at 05:42
refugee wrote:
Some people just can’t stand Hammill’s voice, others love it. And that’s the way it should be.
The Dark Elf wrote:
I don't like his timbre, his tone, or his manic tenor.
Yeah, it's definitely true that if there was one thing that stopped them from being more successful and crossing over into the big league (beside the fact that, in a real genius business decision move, they broke up from '72 - '75, the golden years where many of their prog contemporaries found fame and success), it was PH's vocals. I've talked to so many who love the band but didn't like it at first because of the vocal delivery (and the music was no walk in the park either). It took them a while to like PH's style. So, I'm never befuddled by people not liking VdGG; I love 'em but I can see where the music and the vox would not be some (even most) people's cup of tea. The famed Joe Strummer (one of the punks who wasn't a fan) described VdGG as Uriah Heep meets William Shakespeare (even David Jackson laughed when I told him that; while we both loved the band [Jaxon probably more than me, natch!], you could see where someone who didn't 'get it' might think that!). At times I think it would be easy for the whole world to get into it, but at other times I'm surprised that they're as succussful and respected as they are.
As a side note, the band were very well received the other night when they headlined NearFest, several standing O's throughout. The concert the next night in Sellersville, PA was filmed for TV -- WHYY (Channel 12). If anyone reading this is from that area, could you PM me? Also, the New York Daily News asked us for some photos for an article they're doing on VdGG prior to their June 30 concert at the Concert Hall (NY Society for Ethical Culture). The article will appear on the 28th. Anyone from NYC, could you PM me?
My friend saw Roger Waters the other night at Wrigley Field doing The Wall (he thought it was the best thing he's ever seen) for forty thousand people. The biggest crowd that will hear VdGG music is at a Lady Gaga concert! Here's one that even has me slackjawed. Lady Starlight, who is Lady Gaga's mentor and designer, is opening for Gaga on her Monster Ball tour and doing performance art every night to the music of her fave band - PH/VdGG. The mind boggles. So far I've seen clips for Masks (below) and The Sleepwalkers; I can't imagine what Gaga fans are making of this:
Joined: February 17 2012
Location: 444 Grove St RZ
Status: Offline
Points: 763
Posted: August 02 2012 at 04:58
zachfive wrote:
The more people being exposed to VdGG and PH the better. Although they may not know it, or even enjoy it, they have to experience it.
Exactly. VDGG has their own sound. Whether you like it or not, with time it'll grow on you. I always thought of VDGG's Pawn Hearts much like Rush's 2112. A concept epic that's filled with creativity of their very own. For the longest time I hated Hammill's voice, telling myself "I'll never like this, I'll never like this"...
And one day, that barrier was erased. You grow fond of it, and like it more and more. Much like Peter Gabriel, many dislike his voice. But that unique sound of that voice latches you and you're hooked.
But veering off topic, I really have to compare the albums I love by each of these bands. Pink Floyd: (never quite liked the beginning days of Floyd) Atom Heart, Meddle, Obscured, Dark Side, WYWH, Animals, and The Wall.
Van Der Graaf: (of course I knew Floyd way before Van, so they have nostalgia going for Floyd) The Least, H To He, Pawn, Godbluff, and Still Life.
So, all in all, Pink Floyd gets my vote. 2 more classic albums with the addition of classic nostalgia.
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Van der Graaf Generator vs Pink Floyd
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refugee wrote:
Nice!
. Kind of silly, I know.
