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Roland113 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by zumacraig zumacraig wrote:

i had this idea that i was gonna be a completist with the TFK and related catalog.  I've given up.  It's really only the Flower Kings that get me going.  I'm not even a big fan of the first Roine solo album, The Flower King.  all these guys work best when together (Transatlantic being an exception).  of course, i could change my mind tomorrow, but i'm really tired of 'trying' to get into stuff.  i've been doing that with the first kaip and the first tangent.  

You're not alone Craig.  The Flower King is at the low end of my FK cd's and the few Kapia albums that I've sampled do nothing for me.  I'm hit and miss with the related projects as well, Agents of Mercy doesn't do a lot for me either.

Personally, I find myself generally enjoying the projects that Jonas Reingold is involved in, specifically Karmakanic.  

I do really like "Wall Street Voodoo" which is a Roine Stolt solo album, but I think I like it because it's not prog, it's mostly Roine exploring his bluesy side which is great.  On the other hand, I also have Hydrophenea (or something like that) which is much proggier than Wall Street Voodoo and I never listen to it.  It's not that  it's bad, it's just not good enough for me to listen to.

But, with the exception of Karmakanic, I'm with you, The Flower Kings as a whole are far better than the individuals on their own.
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Craig, I agree with Roland. Karmakanic is the best TFK-related side project, but Tomas Bodin's album "I AM" might be the best TFK-related album by any of the TFK guys. Its like a long lost TFK album, I seriously think you would love it. If there's any side project album you need, it's "I AM".

I'm on the road to being a TFK and related completist (as far as studio albums are concerned, at least). Though I admit, Agents of Mercy is my least favorite, and I can't really get into them that much. But as someone said before me, when it comes to prog, don't give up so easily. I think the best thing you can do is give the albums that aren't doing anything for you a rest. Come back some time later and see if you hear the music differently.
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infandous View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Nov Nov wrote:

Originally posted by Anthony H. Anthony H. wrote:

Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Keyholder will be in my possession pretty soon. Can't wait, it'll be the first 2000s Kaipa album I'll be checking out.

In the Wake of Evolution is much better, despite the lack of Roine.
Much better than Keyholder? Confused

Not to my ears Wink





Agreed.  I have listened to In The Wake many times, and I'm just not hearing the appeal.  Sounds like they are just recycling the first two 2000's Kaipa albums over and over again..........
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infandous View Drop Down
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Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

Craig, I agree with Roland. Karmakanic is the best TFK-related side project, but Tomas Bodin's album "I AM" might be the best TFK-related album by any of the TFK guys. Its like a long lost TFK album, I seriously think you would love it. If there's any side project album you need, it's "I AM".

I'm on the road to being a TFK and related completist (as far as studio albums are concerned, at least). Though I admit, Agents of Mercy is my least favorite, and I can't really get into them that much. But as someone said before me, when it comes to prog, don't give up so easily. I think the best thing you can do is give the albums that aren't doing anything for you a rest. Come back some time later and see if you hear the music differently.


I love I AM, as you know.  However, I also love the Tomas album before that one, Sonic Boulevard, and the Eggs and Dogs album.  I like those more than any Karmakanic.  Actually, the two side projects that do the least for me are Karmakanic and Hasse Froberg's band (though the exception is Karmakanic's "Wheel Of Life"...I still love that one).

One thing I will say for certain, is that I totally agree that the side projects are, on the whole, not as good as the main band.  I AM is my only exception to that rule, and even with that one, I wouldn't rank it above my top 2 or 3 FK's albums.

I have, however, found something to enjoy in all of the side projects (except Froberg's).  I just listened to the first Agents Of Mercy album a couple weeks ago for the first time in probably 2 years, and I was surprised at how enjoyable it is.  Much better than how I remembered it.  I think they could have cut a couple of tracks, and maybe streamlined a couple more, but overall, not a bad album at all.  Of course, with that band if you don't like Nad's vocals, then you aren't going to like the albums.  I happen to love his voice, so they all work pretty well for me, especially the most recent, which rates higher than a couple of FK albums for me.

Basically, I wouldn't really recommend any of the side projects to anyone that wasn't a total FK fan, and even for those people I'd recommend keeping expectations firmly in check, as none of them are as good as the TFK's themselves are when they are at their best.
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Anthony H. View Drop Down
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One thing that drives me absolutely insane: when people call TFK neo-prog. I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I really can't stand it. A lot of people seem to think that any post-70s progressive rock band with certain retro sensibilities can be automatically classified as neo-prog. Neo-prog is it's own musical style, and TFK have nothing to do with it whatsoever.
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Originally posted by Anthony H. Anthony H. wrote:

One thing that drives me absolutely insane: when people call TFK neo-prog. I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I really can't stand it. A lot of people seem to think that any post-70s progressive rock band with certain retro sensibilities can be automatically classified as neo-prog. Neo-prog is it's own musical style, and TFK have nothing to do with it whatsoever.

TFK is third-wave along with SB, PT.
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zumacraig View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Roland113 Roland113 wrote:

Originally posted by zumacraig zumacraig wrote:

i had this idea that i was gonna be a completist with the TFK and related catalog.  I've given up.  It's really only the Flower Kings that get me going.  I'm not even a big fan of the first Roine solo album, The Flower King.  all these guys work best when together (Transatlantic being an exception).  of course, i could change my mind tomorrow, but i'm really tired of 'trying' to get into stuff.  i've been doing that with the first kaip and the first tangent.  

You're not alone Craig.  The Flower King is at the low end of my FK cd's and the few Kapia albums that I've sampled do nothing for me.  I'm hit and miss with the related projects as well, Agents of Mercy doesn't do a lot for me either.

Personally, I find myself generally enjoying the projects that Jonas Reingold is involved in, specifically Karmakanic.  

I do really like "Wall Street Voodoo" which is a Roine Stolt solo album, but I think I like it because it's not prog, it's mostly Roine exploring his bluesy side which is great.  On the other hand, I also have Hydrophenea (or something like that) which is much proggier than Wall Street Voodoo and I never listen to it.  It's not that  it's bad, it's just not good enough for me to listen to.

But, with the exception of Karmakanic, I'm with you, The Flower Kings as a whole are far better than the individuals on their own.

Roland, Dark, Infand-

Thanks for the responses.  I will definitely check out I AM.  i really like the last 2 karmakanic albums, but not the first two.  so, who knows.  as far as jonas goes, he's on all the side projectsLOL  i'll also check out wall street voodoo.  my main deal was that BoE totally clicked, like most TFK.  there's enough to pull me in melody wise that i stick around and ease into the rest.  i like the way all the other side projects 'sound', but the songs just aren't thereCry  that being said, i'm glad that y'all think that at the side projects are on a different tier than TFK proper.  i'm just gonna hold off on side projects for now until i'm ready to dig in and work at it a bit.  i am very happy that there is so much stuff out there...i just hope it all doesn't go out of print.  i have a feeling that the TFK camp attempted to flood the market with product because they knew prog fans would buy it.  i don't like being caught up in that consumerism.  its even worse now that everything is available online.  also, great point Barney, about wasting time searching for the next BIG thing in prog when you could be listening to Firth of FifthApprove

rock on cheese balls!Headbanger


Edited by zumacraig - July 20 2012 at 15:24
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Master of Time View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Anthony H. Anthony H. wrote:

One thing that drives me absolutely insane: when people call TFK neo-prog. I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I really can't stand it. A lot of people seem to think that any post-70s progressive rock band with certain retro sensibilities can be automatically classified as neo-prog. Neo-prog is it's own musical style, and TFK have nothing to do with it whatsoever.
Thank you! That is one of my absolute biggest pet peeves. It doesn't really happen much here though. Some people just think any modern symphonic prog is neo-prog but there is a difference and I get so freaking mad when people don't get the difference. People have done it with Spock's Beard and Wobbler as well.
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zumacraig View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Master of Time Master of Time wrote:

Originally posted by Anthony H. Anthony H. wrote:

One thing that drives me absolutely insane: when people call TFK neo-prog. I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I really can't stand it. A lot of people seem to think that any post-70s progressive rock band with certain retro sensibilities can be automatically classified as neo-prog. Neo-prog is it's own musical style, and TFK have nothing to do with it whatsoever.
Thank you! That is one of my absolute biggest pet peeves. It doesn't really happen much here though. Some people just think any modern symphonic prog is neo-prog but there is a difference and I get so freaking mad when people don't get the difference. People have done it with Spock's Beard and Wobbler as well.

yeah, but wobbler sounds really neo prog to me with all those digital synths and stuff.    Wink
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Originally posted by Anthony H. Anthony H. wrote:

One thing that drives me absolutely insane: when people call TFK neo-prog. I don't know if this has been discussed before, but I really can't stand it. A lot of people seem to think that any post-70s progressive rock band with certain retro sensibilities can be automatically classified as neo-prog. Neo-prog is it's own musical style, and TFK have nothing to do with it whatsoever.
I wouldn't say it drives me insane but I can certainly tell the difference.

I'm not much of a scholar on all these different genres but to me, 'Neo-prog' is those bands that cropped up in the 80s (Marillion, IQ, Pallas, etc) and bands that have since evolved from them (Arena?) or been influenced by that sound (lots of Polish bands!).

I did try and jump on the Neo-prog band-wagon in the early 80s as I was craving the early 70s Genesis sound (rather than the early 80s Genesis sound) and so naturally gravitated towards those bands. However, by the mid 80s, I realised that they weren't quite up to the job and lost interest. Neo-prog, to me, is the sound of good amateur musicians (often very good) trying to emulate the classic 70s bands but with limited success.

In the late 80s/early 90s, I gave up on prog again as those bands just didn't interest me anymore.............and then, sometime around 1997, I heard "Walking On The Wind" on a Rock show on UK Radio. Now, THAT was what I'd been missing!! It was the best prog rock track I'd heard since 1977 - no question.

The 90s prog bands (or "3rd Wave" if you like) just sounded like they were born to play this kind of music and, to my ears, the music sounds so much more organic, natural and beautifully played. The Flower Kings, as we all know in this thread, are the epitome of this.

I have a friend who is a fellow Genesis fan who can't quite get The Flower Kings but loves all of those Neo-prog bands I mentioned - especially Marillion, Arena and all those Polish bands (Collage, Quidam, Satellite, Riverside, etc, etc). Some of it is OK but mostly I just find it pretty boring. The Flower Kings, on the other, have delighted and enthralled (and sometimes frustrated) me for almost 15 years now. Different strokes for different folks of course.


Edited by Nov - July 21 2012 at 01:36
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I'd love to see Lalle Larsson from Karmakanic and AoM join TFK, and just make a monster album.
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Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

I'd love to see Lalle Larsson from Karmakanic and AoM join TFK, and just make a monster album.

I've been saying this since before Dramarama came out, and considered it a real possibility since there was so much bad blood between Roine and Tomas. He'd be an awesome fit for the band.

The fact that Agents of Mercy are still listed as Neo Prog on this site makes me kind of sad. Apparently they were the only team that would take them and they had to go somewhere.
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i don't know, Tomas is a major part of TFK for me.  he's actually a more reserved player than tomas to my ears.  is he capable of ripping a killer synth solo?  examples?  i admit, i haven't listened too closely to him.  :)
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I'm not saying get rid of Tomas, but have both him and Lasse in TFK. Lasse is more virtuosic, whereas Tomas is more atmospheric. They both can play complex stuff, as well as hold back. I think it would be magical.

Examples of great Lasse playing would be Karmakanic - "Who's The Boss In The Factory?", 3rd World Electric, and Agents of Mercy - "The Black Forest". Lasse is generally great on all the albums I've heard him on.
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Originally posted by darkshade darkshade wrote:

I'd love to see Lalle Larsson   from Karmakanic and AoM join TFK, and just make a monster album.
Not for me.

Tomas is perfect for The Flower Kings.

If  Lalle Larsson was in the band it'd be like Rick Wakeman or Keith Emerson joining Genesis. Disastrous!!
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Bodin is the only keyboard played TFK needs.  Larsson does a fine job in Karmakanic, but he is not the guy for TFK.  
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^ I'm with Nov and Biff on this.  Lalle is a fantastic keyboard player, a real virtuoso.  The first time I heard him (on Who's The Boss) it was the finest performance by a new (to me) keyboard player I'd heard in 30 years, it was that good.
 
However, I just do not think it would work with TFK.  There's only room for 1 "leader" in the band.  As an example, just listen in on TFK's version of Cinema Show where Roine has much more to say than Hackett ever did on the original.  Tomas is such an integral part of the band though.  He's not flashy but I just can't imagine them without him.  He has had an incredible influence on the band's sound and style, you just have to hear his solo work to tell that.  And the fact he wrote most of the music for their best ever track (Garden of Dreams) just drives the point home.
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Someone just above on this thread mentioned something about `bad blood' between Tomas and Roine, can anyone explain this a bit more?

I knew nothing of this, but it wasn't lost on me during the 5 year absence of the Flower Kings that virtually every side-project featured Lalle on keyboards, even with most of the usual FK band members also present except for Tomas.

I'd be very disappointed to see the Flower Kings without Tomas, even though I love Lalle and especially his last two solo albums. Besides, he seems to have plenty of other prog work going anyway!
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Originally posted by zumacraig zumacraig wrote:

i don't know, Tomas is a major part of TFK for me.  he's actually a more reserved player than tomas to my ears.  is he capable of ripping a killer synth solo?  examples?  i admit, i haven't listened too closely to him.  :)

I know a couple of other people made similar comments but I had to throw my two cents in.

I think Lalle can play circles around Tomas.  No offence to Tomas, but Lalle is fantastic.  I saw the Karmakanic / Agents of Mercy double bill a few years ago and Lalle's solos made me sit up and go 'wow'.  This guy can play.

With that being said, Tomas is probably the best bet for the Flower Kings.  He's part of what keeps The Flower Kings what they are.  There have been a bunch of different threads about The Flower Kings being better than most of the side projects, I have to look at Tomas as part of the reason.  While he doesn't wow me as much as Lalle, his writing contributions are integral to the band.
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I'm listening to the new album for the very first time. Pretty cool, but I feel like I need to give it more listend to totally appreciate and understand the quality of this work, like almost all FK later albums. To be honest, I'm enjoying the bonus tracks more than the actual songs at this point :O Time will tell..

Edited by Ytse_Jam - July 23 2012 at 09:01
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