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Epignosis 
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
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 Posted: July 13 2012 at 22:33 |
We dated for years without having sex. We were married when we did. We had our first child four years later. So don't laugh. It isn't funny. People ought not make poor choices.
 stonebeard wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
PS- You're just a collection of cells. All of us are.
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So are cows, and most people are fine with them being killed. But oh how I wonder what makes people....born people...different. Gee golly I could wrack my brain all day churning this one over.....
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Context. Your earlier remark was that fetuses can be aborted because they are "just a collection of cells" is untenable.
stonebeard wrote:
Of course it may be worth it in the end if you take that view, but a
few weeks in, when it's just a collection of cells, I'm not sure the
end result matters if the person is not fully committed to having the
child and developing a relationship with it for themselves. |
You are just a collection of cells. Please find a different reason to kill somebody than that. Otherwise, you could kill your neighbor just because they are a collection of cells.
Edited by Epignosis - July 13 2012 at 22:35
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 22:42 |
To clarify:
stonebeard wrote:
but a few weeks in, when it's just a collection of cells,
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This implies that at some point, you become MORE than a collection of cells.
When does that happen? And how?
Edited by Epignosis - July 13 2012 at 22:43
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 22:44 |
Epignosis wrote:
We dated for years without having sex. We were married when we did. We had our first child four years later. So don't laugh. It isn't funny. People ought not make poor choices.
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I'm glad your oddly atypical relationship structure worked out such that you have an ace in the hole for abortion debates.
(Also, that it worked out in general. I'm not entirely sarcastic.)
Epignosis wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
PS- You're just a collection of cells. All of us are.
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So are cows, and most people are fine with them being killed. But oh how I wonder what makes people....born people...different. Gee golly I could wrack my brain all day churning this one over.....
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Context. Your earlier remark was that fetuses can be aborted because they are "just a collection of cells" is untenable.
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Never been down this road before. It's a small collection of cells, not significantly resembling born, cognizant people, lacking in humanlike intelligence, and outside of its origin, would not otherwise deserve consideration different from any other animal.
Epignosis wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
Of course it may be worth it in the end if you take that view, but a
few weeks in, when it's just a collection of cells, I'm not sure the
end result matters if the person is not fully committed to having the
child and developing a relationship with it for themselves. |
You are just a collection of cells. Please find a different reason to kill somebody than that. Otherwise, you could kill your neighbor just because they are a collection of cells.
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See above. Surely you will be satisfied with the reasons I provided, and, having no comeback of your own, will have no recourse but to change your position entirely and to abort babies left and right like any moral person!
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thellama73
Collaborator
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Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 22:50 |
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In my college philosophy of ethics class, we spent a gooddeal of time arguing about what makes a person a "person" worthy of consideration. It proved very difficult for anyone to come up with a consistent response. Some people said intelligence, but refused to say that murdering the mentally handicapped is okay. Some people said consciousness, but were unwilling to say that the act of going to sleep makes one less than a person. Some people said a fetus is not a person because it can't survive on it's own, but neither can a three year old or someone who is in a full body cast. I never heard a convincing and consistent reason why a fetus is not a person, but these other cases are. In my book, if it's alive and has human DNA, it's a person.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 22:51 |
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[Not to sound close-minded on this, but nothing here is a revelation to me and I'm probably not going to get less sarcastic the more we do this, so we might want to stop.]
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 22:55 |
stonebeard wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
PS- You're just a collection of cells. All of us are.
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So are cows, and most people are fine with them being killed. But oh how I wonder what makes people....born people...different. Gee golly I could wrack my brain all day churning this one over.....
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Context. Your earlier remark was that fetuses can be aborted because they are "just a collection of cells" is untenable.
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Never been down this road before. It's a small collection of cells, not significantly resembling born, cognizant people, lacking in humanlike intelligence, and outside of its origin, would not otherwise deserve consideration different from any other animal.
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You may adopt your morals based on what animals of the wild do. I do not. What other animals do to their young is of no concern to me. Would you eat your young? Hell, other creatures do it!
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 22:56 |
thellama73 wrote:
In my college philosophy of ethics class, we spent a gooddeal of time arguing about what makes a person a "person" worthy of consideration. It proved very difficult for anyone to come up with a consistent response. Some people said intelligence, but refused to say that murdering the mentally handicapped is okay. Some people said consciousness, but were unwilling to say that the act of going to sleep makes one less than a person. Some people said a fetus is not a person because it can't survive on it's own, but neither can a three year old or someone who is in a full body cast. I never heard a convincing and consistent reason why a fetus is not a person, but these other cases are. In my book, if it's alive and has human DNA, it's a person.
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As you were describing your scenario, I already decided on the answer: Human DNA.
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 22:57 |
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As a sidebar, Rob, I am teaching myself ancient Greek. Does your screen name mean "against knowledge" or something similar?
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 22:57 |
Epignosis wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
PS- You're just a collection of cells. All of us are.
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So are cows, and most people are fine with them being killed. But oh how I wonder what makes people....born people...different. Gee golly I could wrack my brain all day churning this one over.....
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Context. Your earlier remark was that fetuses can be aborted because they are "just a collection of cells" is untenable.
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Never been down this road before. It's a small collection of cells, not significantly resembling born, cognizant people, lacking in humanlike intelligence, and outside of its origin, would not otherwise deserve consideration different from any other animal.
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You may adopt your morals based on what animals of the wild do. I do not. What other animals do to their young is of no concern to me. Would you eat your young? Hell, other creatures do it! |
Or I could take some cues from other animals, and temper them with my own views? It's not all or nothing.
Bonobos have sex to solve disputes instead of using violence. And humans are more sophisticated? Hahaha.
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 22:58 |
stonebeard wrote:
Bonobos have sex to solve disputes instead of using violence. And humans are more sophisticated? Hahaha. |
Do Bonobos have courts, third party mediation, debates or elections?
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 23:00 |
thellama73 wrote:
As a sidebar, Rob, I am teaching myself ancient Greek. Does your screen name mean "against knowledge" or something similar?
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In context (since Greek prefixes can mean a number of things):
epi = toward
gnosis = knowledge
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 23:03 |
stonebeard wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
PS- You're just a collection of cells. All of us are.
|
So are cows, and most people are fine with them being killed. But oh how I wonder what makes people....born people...different. Gee golly I could wrack my brain all day churning this one over.....
|
Context. Your earlier remark was that fetuses can be aborted because they are "just a collection of cells" is untenable.
|
Never been down this road before. It's a small collection of cells, not significantly resembling born, cognizant people, lacking in humanlike intelligence, and outside of its origin, would not otherwise deserve consideration different from any other animal.
|
You may adopt your morals based on what animals of the wild do. I do not. What other animals do to their young is of no concern to me. Would you eat your young? Hell, other creatures do it! |
Or I could take some cues from other animals, and temper them with my own views? It's not all or nothing.
Bonobos have sex to solve disputes instead of using violence. And humans are more sophisticated? Hahaha. |
Monkeys also fling their poo. You do that for fun?
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 23:04 |
Epignosis wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
As a sidebar, Rob, I am teaching myself ancient Greek. Does your screen name mean "against knowledge" or something similar?
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In context (since Greek prefixes can mean a number of things):
epi = toward
gnosis = knowledge
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Ah, that makes more sense.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 23:07 |
thellama73 wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
Bonobos have sex to solve disputes instead of using violence. And humans are more sophisticated? Hahaha. |
Do Bonobos have courts, third party mediation, debates or elections?
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Can't say for sure, but I wouldn't really use elections as a sign of sophistication...
Epignosis wrote:
Monkeys also fling their poo. You do that for fun? |
I interpret it as an outlet for my inner id.
Also, Bonobos, as chimps,and humans, are Old World apes, not monkeys.
Edited by stonebeard - July 13 2012 at 23:08
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 23:08 |
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You don't think voting on an issue and abiding by the majority decision is more sophisticated than violence or sex?
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 23:09 |
thellama73 wrote:
You don't think voting on an issue and abiding by the majority decision is more sophisticated than violence or sex?
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I can understand if you don't think my quips are funny, but...you do recognize they are not a serious bids for debate, right?
Edited by stonebeard - July 13 2012 at 23:10
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 23:18 |
stonebeard wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
You don't think voting on an issue and abiding by the majority decision is more sophisticated than violence or sex?
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I can understand if you don't think my quips are funny, but...you do recognize they are not a serious bids for debate, right?
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It's fair enough. You dismissed me from the get-go.
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 23:19 |
stonebeard wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
You don't think voting on an issue and abiding by the majority decision is more sophisticated than violence or sex?
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I can understand if you don't think my quips are funny, but...you do recognize they are not a serious bids for debate, right?
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Aw, you're no fun anymore. 
Edited by thellama73 - July 13 2012 at 23:20
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 23:31 |
Epignosis wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
You don't think voting on an issue and abiding by the majority decision is more sophisticated than violence or sex?
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I can understand if you don't think my quips are funny, but...you do recognize they are not a serious bids for debate, right?
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It's fair enough. You dismissed me from the get-go.
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Because abortion debates are really all the same, and I'm positive us two have done this exact same dance before, maybe even in this thread. No one's minds are getting changed right now.
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The Truth
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 19 2009
Location: Kansas
Status: Offline
Points: 21795
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 23:39 |
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I thought I might announce this here, I can't think of any better place.
But after years of hating every part of politics and basically shifting from left to right like some ambidextrous mad man, I have finally found that Libertarianism is the closest to my personal beliefs of any form of political thinking.
Gentleman, I now just might frequent this thread.
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