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manofmystery 
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 Posted: July 13 2012 at 20:09 |
 head wrote:
Ron Paul is for personal freedom, but wants to outlaw all forms of abortion.
Hmm. Never understood that. |
I find being pro-abortion completely incompatible with libertarianism. Once a pregnancy is known to exist we know that there's a human being coming into existence. The personal freedom of that human is completely disregarded simply because government agents have taken it upon themselves to set an arbitrary start date for "life". It's hard for me to accept that so many libertarians are fine with government defining life.
head wrote:
Then again, I always scoffed at the idea of trusting faceless
corporations over an electable and accountable government,
so...must be me. |
Corporations are only unaccountable when government injects themselves into the affairs of the market (where we are now and have been for some time). The free market holds corporations accountable while most politicians serve for life so long as they steal enough money from the rest of the country for their district. The 17th Amendment took away any political accountablity at the national level. Meanwhile, the bureaucrats appointed by politicans are unelected and unaccountable. Anyway, if corporations were forced to operate within a free market they would be accountable to consumers. There's a reason Ron Paul doesn't have the big corporate sponsors the others do: large companies fear the competition of the market.
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 Time always wins.
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thellama73
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 20:24 |
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I find it heartening that every libertarian in this thread is (mostly) pro-life. I'm pretty sure the official platform of the Libertarian party (of which I am not a member) is pro-choice.
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The T
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 20:54 |
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I don't like abortion. I prefer to have the option in the very first weeks of pregnancy though. Sadly, I wouldn't be able to give you a properly coherent argument for my view. I just feel life is not really proper until some sort of actual being is formed inside. Again, very unscientific. But I have to be honest. I can't condemn a practice I would use if needed (again, in the very first days of pregnancy. I can never accept late term abortions.). Also, I feel spreading the love of abortion spreads irresponsibility and the carelessness of today's world. But I can't judge if I'm ot ready to say "I would never do it".
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Epignosis
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 21:30 |
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Epignosis
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 21:35 |
The T wrote:
I don't like abortion. I prefer to have the option in the very first weeks of pregnancy though. Sadly, I wouldn't be able to give you a properly coherent argument for my view. I just feel life is not really proper until some sort of actual being is formed inside. Again, very unscientific. But I have to be honest. I can't condemn a practice I would use if needed (again, in the very first days of pregnancy. I can never accept late term abortions.). Also, I feel spreading the love of abortion spreads irresponsibility and the carelessness of today's world. But I can't judge if I'm ot ready to say "I would never do it". |
I do not agree with any acceptance of abortion, but T, this post is golden. It sums everything a lot of people are afraid of, and yet exudes a degree of uncertainty and hope.
One thing I would challenge you to do is challenge your concept of "needed." Why would you need an abortion?
Looking at Ephraim now...we didn't plan to have him, but our family would not be complete without him. Can I afford him? I don't know. But I'll go homeless before I'll pass him up!
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stonebeard
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Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
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Points: 28057
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 21:40 |
thellama73 wrote:
I find it heartening that every libertarian in this thread is (mostly) pro-life. |
I'm not, though I'm not entirely libertarian. And I'm well aware of the freedom contradictions in that view, but I ultimate believe society is better off with at least some amount of abortion legalized rather than not.
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Epignosis
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 21:40 |
stonebeard wrote:
society is better off |
That's the problem.
I.e., what does that phrase mean?
Edited by Epignosis - July 13 2012 at 21:41
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thellama73
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 21:42 |
Epignosis wrote:
Looking at Ephraim now...we didn't plan to have him, but our family would not be complete without him. Can I afford him? I don't know. But I'll go homeless before I'll pass him up!
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Your son's name is Ephraim? That's awesome! If I ever have a son, I am going to name him Augustus.
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thellama73
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 21:44 |
Epignosis wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
society is better off |
That's the problem.
I.e., what does that phrase mean?
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I may take flak for quoting Ayn Rand, but one of the things she says that I find really insightful is that there is no such thing as society. There are only individuals. Some individuals are undoubtedly better off due to abortion, but others are undoubtedly worse off. Since I'm not a utilitarian, the ratio doesn't really matter too much I guess.
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Epignosis
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 21:48 |
thellama73 wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Looking at Ephraim now...we didn't plan to have him, but our family would not be complete without him. Can I afford him? I don't know. But I'll go homeless before I'll pass him up!
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Your son's name is Ephraim? That's awesome! If I ever have a son, I am going to name him Augustus.
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We chose the names based on their meanings:
Ours are Simon Ezekiel (He hears that God is strong), Abigail Sophia (Father's joy and wisdom), and Ephraim Malachi (Fruitful and my messenger).
Anyway, here's Ephraim. Watch your nose.
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Atavachron
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 21:56 |
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I've never seen a baby make such a perfect fighter's fist-- congrats !
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Epignosis
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 21:57 |
Atavachron wrote:
I've never seen a baby make such a perfect fighter's fist-- congrats !
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Believe it or not, he does it often. And my five year old calls himself the "fighting man!"
We'll see when his brother grows up!  
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Atavachron
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 21:58 |
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I teach martial arts; that's a perfect punch
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stonebeard
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 22:00 |
Epignosis wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
society is better off |
That's the problem.
I.e., what does that phrase mean?
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I believe it is a cornerstone for the freedom of women, though it's questionable whether that would be done away with if we went back to back alley abortions. That is probably the most meaningful benefit of abortion, as well as contraception (in a historical context) for me.
And while it's a good thing that you feel blessed to have another child, I sympathize with women/couples who find themselves with a child when they are not financially prepared, or if it's a one night stand or something. Wag a finger at their irresponsibility sure, but when the bun's in the oven it's a big decision to make. Even if adoption is a viable option, which it should always be, that is a huge amount of resources to put into a child. Of course it may be worth it in the end if you take that view, but a few weeks in, when it's just a collection of cells, I'm not sure the end result matters if the person is not fully committed to having the child and developing a relationship with it for themselves.
Again you may disagree.
Personally, I don't think I have a problem with terminating a life (or the potential for a life) when it's just a few days old. Maybe when I find myself in a situation where it's personal, I'll change my mind. I think that if we take a fully Kantian or a fully Utilitarian view of ethics, we'll end up with an irrational society either way. When we temper one with the other and try to find ways of making them work as a whole, we'll be better off, which is what we see playing out in the abortion debate now.
Now, feel free to tell me how I've contradicted myself here and there and how wrong I am about everything. I shall await the revelation of my wrongs.
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Epignosis
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 22:12 |
stonebeard wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
society is better off |
That's the problem.
I.e., what does that phrase mean?
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I believe it is a cornerstone for the freedom of women, though it's questionable whether that would be done away with if we went back to back alley abortions. That is probably the most meaningful benefit of abortion, as well as contraception (in a historical context) for me.
And while it's a good thing that you feel blessed to have another child, I sympathize with women/couples who find themselves with a child when they are not financially prepared, or if it's a one night stand or something. Wag a finger at their irresponsibility sure, but when the bun's in the oven it's a big decision to make. Even if adoption is a viable option, which it should always be, that is a huge amount of resources to put into a child. Of course it may be worth it in the end if you take that view, but a few weeks in, when it's just a collection of cells, I'm not sure the end result matters if the person is not fully committed to having the child and developing a relationship with it for themselves.
Again you may disagree.
Personally, I don't think I have a problem with terminating a life (or the potential for a life) when it's just a few days old. Maybe when I find myself in a situation where it's personal, I'll change my mind. I think that if we take a fully Kantian or a fully Utilitarian view of ethics, we'll end up with an irrational society either way. When we temper one with the other and try to find ways of making them work as a whole, we'll be better off, which is what we see playing out in the abortion debate now.
Now, feel free to tell me how I've contradicted myself here and there and how wrong I am about everything. I shall await the revelation of my wrongs. |
If you can't afford a child, don't have sex. What's so hard about that?
My wife and I wound up having our second child after I lost my job. We were poor. Would I have had her disposed of for some financial buoy? No sir. Not at all. She is so much to me. She was before she was born. As were all my children.
PS- You're just a collection of cells. All of us are.
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thellama73
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 22:14 |
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I'm not.
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Epignosis
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 22:15 |
thellama73 wrote:
I'm not.
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What are you?
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thellama73
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 22:19 |
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Just one cell.
p.s. also,bored and a bit drunk on Wild Turkey, so excuse my increasingly silly responses.
Edited by thellama73 - July 13 2012 at 22:20
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
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Points: 28057
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 22:19 |
Epignosis wrote:
If you can't afford a child, don't have sex. What's so hard about that?
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I thought for a second about replying seriously, but instead I'll just 
Epignosis wrote:
PS- You're just a collection of cells. All of us are.
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So are cows, and most people are fine with them being killed. But oh how I wonder what makes people....born people...different. Gee golly I could wrack my brain all day churning this one over.....
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thellama73
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Joined: May 29 2006
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Posted: July 13 2012 at 22:22 |
stonebeard wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
PS- You're just a collection of cells. All of us are.
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So are cows, and most people are fine with them being killed. But oh how I wonder what makes people....born people...different. Gee golly I could wrack my brain all day churning this one over.....
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It's a good question, and I guess the best answer is simply that we are also people. If we were cows, we would not tolerate cows being killed.
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