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Epignosis 
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Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
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Points: 32552
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 Posted: July 11 2012 at 12:29 |
 thellama73 wrote:
That is unbelievable. I guess the first amendment doesn't apply in Phoenix. Hopefully he sues the pants off the city for such an injustice.
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Or the 8th, if you ask me.
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The T
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 12:37 |
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Disgusting. What else can I say. But the Slartis of the world will be happy because it was an action performed against a religious activity.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 13:04 |
Epignosis wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
That is unbelievable. I guess the first amendment doesn't apply in Phoenix. Hopefully he sues the pants off the city for such an injustice.
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Or the 8th, if you ask me.
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Or article 2 sections 2.1(E), 6, 12, and 33 of the Arizona state constitution.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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thellama73
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Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 13:53 |
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So there are a lot of constitutional provisions that would prohibit such an act. By the way, I read the "debunking" of the article in the comments section, and it made no difference to my opinion.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 13:58 |
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I didn't bother to read them. Whenever this comes up people go blah blah blah blah zoning laws so it's okay as if I'm just supposed to accept zoning laws.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 14:02 |
“It came down to zoning and proper permitting. Anytime you are holding a gathering of people continuously as he does, we ave concerns about people being able to exit the facility properly in case there is a fire, and that’s really allt his comes down to.”
Zoning laws are some of the biggest slabs of bullsh*t in the legal code.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 15:30 |
The T wrote:
Disgusting. What else can I say. But the Slartis of the world will be happy because it was an action performed against a religious activity. |
Don't get me wrong. I enjoy anti religious activities!  But indeed, the classic "you cant pick and choose" paradigm...
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66555
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 15:48 |
I suspect that the other side of the story is that he pissed some neighbors off and they complained. They probably could never find parking in the streets in front of their houses because of the constant flow of bible study traffic. It is one of those laws that generally isn't enforced unless someone complains about it. On the other hand, maybe the neighbor is an atheist and they are being discriminated against because of their religious beliefs.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 15:50 |
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That's just an explanation of why prosecution was initiated. It's not the other side of the story. I doesn't explain how this can occur legally.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66555
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 16:04 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
That's just an explanation of why prosecution was initiated. It's not the other side of the story. I doesn't explain how this can occur legally.
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Zoning laws do serve a purpose. Nobody wants to buy a house in the middle of a subdivision and have a McDonald's come through and turn the house next door into a drive-thru restaurant (I suppose I shouldn't say nobody, as there are probably some that would be thrilled to have a McDonald's in short walking distance from them). Quite obviously I don't know the other side or whole side of the story and am only playing devil's advocate in Slarti's absence. As the story is played out in that article it sounds like they are horrible victims of discrimination or religious persecution. My previous post was just a stab in the dark as to what the other side of the story might be. I can't imagine that this occurred after one complaint. There were probably multiple complaints over a period of time, and somebody came up with the bright idea of enforcing this seldom used zoning law to accomplish what was trying to be accomplished. (No idea if this was due to religious persecution or an attempt to appease the greater community). Sort of like convicting Al Capone of tax evasion since they could never convict him of racketeering, drugs, bootlegging, murder, or any of the other number of alleged crimes that he may or may not have committed.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66555
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 16:07 |
Here we go. Don't know if this is fact or fiction, but new comment in the comment section: Wow, don't you ignorant people know to check ANYTHING reported on Fox? This guy had 67 building code and safety violations that he repeatedly refused to address, built a 2000 square foot illegal building in his back yard to hold these meetings, and had regular meetings of 40 or so people there. This isn't a prayer circle of a half dozen folks like my neighbor has (and that blocks up parking a bit in our cul-de-sac). It is a zoning violation, a nuisance to the neighbors, and even unsafe for the attendees. |
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thellama73
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Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 16:29 |
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My favorite quote from one of the commenters. "The constitution doesn't give you the right to break the law."
Um, yes it does if the law is unconstitutional.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 18:42 |
rushfan4 wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
That's just an explanation of why prosecution was initiated. It's not the other side of the story. I doesn't explain how this can occur legally.
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Zoning laws do serve a purpose. Nobody wants to buy a house in the middle of a subdivision and have a McDonald's come through and turn the house next door into a drive-thru restaurant (I suppose I shouldn't say nobody, as there are probably some that would be thrilled to have a McDonald's in short walking distance from them). Quite obviously I don't know the other side or whole side of the story and am only playing devil's advocate in Slarti's absence. As the story is played out in that article it sounds like they are horrible victims of discrimination or religious persecution. My previous post was just a stab in the dark as to what the other side of the story might be. I can't imagine that this occurred after one complaint. There were probably multiple complaints over a period of time, and somebody came up with the bright idea of enforcing this seldom used zoning law to accomplish what was trying to be accomplished. (No idea if this was due to religious persecution or an attempt to appease the greater community). Sort of like convicting Al Capone of tax evasion since they could never convict him of racketeering, drugs, bootlegging, murder, or any of the other number of alleged crimes that he may or may not have committed. |
Random murder also serves a purpose. I'm not sure what your point is. Of course they serve a purpose, the issue is that they fail at that purpose, they are abused systematically, and they limit economic action. Even if there were complaints so what? A guy gets thrown in jail because some neighbors are unhappy? A guy gets fined thousands of dollars because government can't properly manage it's own streets?
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 18:46 |
rushfan4 wrote:
Here we go. Don't know if this is fact or fiction, but new comment in the comment section: Wow, don't you ignorant people know to check ANYTHING reported on Fox? This guy had 67 building code and safety violations that he repeatedly refused to address, built a 2000 square foot illegal building in his back yard to hold these meetings, and had regular meetings of 40 or so people there. This isn't a prayer circle of a half dozen folks like my neighbor has (and that blocks up parking a bit in our cul-de-sac). It is a zoning violation, a nuisance to the neighbors, and even unsafe for the attendees. |
Why don't you refrain from calling me ignorant? How about you read my post where I said I don't give a damn about zoning laws. You drop these words like illegal and unsafe as if they mean something. Illegal has nothing to do with bad or wrong. Unsafe is a rather arbitrary definition. A married couple can't live in a studio apartment in Florida because it's "unsafe". These terms are meaningless. Here's a tip for talking to us here. Don't throw insults around, and don't cite laws as if they are justifications for anything. That's essential an argument saying that nothing existing is without a creator therefore God exists and created the universe. If you're going to justify something you need to justify it not base it on some law.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66555
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 18:56 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
rushfan4 wrote:
Here we go. Don't know if this is fact or fiction, but new comment in the comment section: Wow, don't you ignorant people know to check ANYTHING reported on Fox? This guy had 67 building code and safety violations that he repeatedly refused to address, built a 2000 square foot illegal building in his back yard to hold these meetings, and had regular meetings of 40 or so people there. This isn't a prayer circle of a half dozen folks like my neighbor has (and that blocks up parking a bit in our cul-de-sac). It is a zoning violation, a nuisance to the neighbors, and even unsafe for the attendees. |
Why don't you refrain from calling me ignorant?
How about you read my post where I said I don't give a damn about zoning laws. You drop these words like illegal and unsafe as if they mean something. Illegal has nothing to do with bad or wrong. Unsafe is a rather arbitrary definition. A married couple can't live in a studio apartment in Florida because it's "unsafe". These terms are meaningless.
Here's a tip for talking to us here. Don't throw insults around, and don't cite laws as if they are justifications for anything. That's essential an argument saying that nothing existing is without a creator therefore God exists and created the universe. If you're going to justify something you need to justify it not base it on some law.
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I didn't call you ignorant. I cut and paste a comment from the article that Rob had posted which stated the other side of the story. The "ignorant" comment came from the guy who posted that in that comments section.
Edited by rushfan4 - July 11 2012 at 19:06
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 19:33 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
rushfan4 wrote:
Here we go. Don't know if this is fact or fiction, but new comment in the comment section: Wow, don't you ignorant people know to check ANYTHING reported on Fox? This guy had 67 building code and safety violations that he repeatedly refused to address, built a 2000 square foot illegal building in his back yard to hold these meetings, and had regular meetings of 40 or so people there. This isn't a prayer circle of a half dozen folks like my neighbor has (and that blocks up parking a bit in our cul-de-sac). It is a zoning violation, a nuisance to the neighbors, and even unsafe for the attendees. |
Why don't you refrain from calling me ignorant?
How about you read my post where I said I don't give a damn about zoning laws. You drop these words like illegal and unsafe as if they mean something. Illegal has nothing to do with bad or wrong. Unsafe is a rather arbitrary definition. A married couple can't live in a studio apartment in Florida because it's "unsafe". These terms are meaningless.
Here's a tip for talking to us here. Don't throw insults around, and don't cite laws as if they are justifications for anything. That's essential an argument saying that nothing existing is without a creator therefore God exists and created the universe. If you're going to justify something you need to justify it not base it on some law.
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Yes Pat, please. If you knew Scott, you would know he is the most mild mannered individual one could meet here. His remarks could have benefited from quotation marks, but he is an accountant, not an English teacher.
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rushfan4
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Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66555
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 19:37 |
 stands for Scott.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
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Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 19:40 |
And I believe that. 
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
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Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66555
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 19:49 |
Not hardly, except for when I parade around in blue tights and red underwear, but that is probably TMI. 
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thellama73
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Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: July 11 2012 at 20:16 |
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I have long disagreed with zoning laws, but apparently you can't zone a "no church" area anyway, so I think all the zoning talk is rubbish.
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