Social Democrats Thread #1

I was one, for about 5 years.
I still honestly "believe" in it as it has proven how it can be successful just I don't feel it's right (or realistic) for the US.

It is a beautiful idea though, the "wellness" of a welfare (and a generous) one in a free market capitalist setting (sometimes even more so than the US!)
Just not so realistic is all, except for the region it's flourished in.

Those nordic countries just keep pwning us

Ancient Tree wrote: lazland wrote: Ancient Tree wrote: Slartibartfast wrote: I probably fit.  What's your definition?  Do you know who Bernie Sanders is? well im from EU and i dont know much about USA representatives,but thanks i will look a little about Sanders,im a member of social democrats party in my countrie,im also active in PES(Party of EU Socialists) http://www.pes.eu/  I'm also studying Karl Kautsky,And Leon Trotsky   Not sure of the relevance of Kautsky & Trotsky, both of whom were revolutionaries, and whose modern day followers have a deep and lasting disdain for social democrats.   I am a member of the Welsh nationalist party, Plaid Cymru, which, in recent years, has moved very much to a left wing party.   I dislike most of the major social democratic parties, actually, especially the British Labour Party, which is about as far away from its roots as it is possible to get these days. It, and most of its European counterparts, have become part of a massive centralised establishment, with crushing impact upon the very working people they were designed to protect and nurture. I'm aware of this that SD are going way to much to the right wing,but i got abit of hope since an new president of our social democrats was voted,and he already have bring the party more to the left side.

ExittheLemming wrote: lazland wrote: Ancient Tree wrote: Slartibartfast wrote: I probably fit.  What's your definition?  Do you know who Bernie Sanders is? well im from EU and i dont know much about USA representatives,but thanks i will look a little about Sanders,im a member of social democrats party in my countrie,im also active in PES(Party of EU Socialists) http://www.pes.eu/  I'm also studying Karl Kautsky,And Leon Trotsky   Not sure of the relevance of Kautsky & Trotsky, both of whom were revolutionaries, and whose modern day followers have a deep and lasting disdain for social democrats.   I am a member of the Welsh nationalist party, Plaid Cymru, which, in recent years, has moved very much to a left wing party.   I dislike most of the major social democratic parties, actually, especially the British Labour Party, which is about as far away from its roots as it is possible to get these days. It, and most of its European counterparts, have become part of a massive centralised establishment, with crushing impact upon the very working people they were designed to protect and nurture. I wouldn't necessarily disagree with any of this from an idealogical perspective, but the Labour Party in the UK during Thatcher's reign had made itself practically unelectable for the British public. For me, Neil Kinnock was the politician who stopped the rot and became the architect for Tony Blair's subsequent term in office. Yes, you are right Steve: any mention of the bete noir socialism was airbrushed out of their manifesto and they became, to all intents and purposes, a Social Democratic party no different to the erstwhile Lib Dems or their equivalents in mainland Europe. Had the Labour Paty not done so, they would have become irretrievably marginalised as the so-called loony left etc. Love her or loathe her, Margaret Thatcher conspired to get traditional hardcore Labour voters to vote Tory and there is no political leader in living memory who has engineered such a fundamental change in the perception of the electorate. (Fighting hard to avoid the Prog turncoats sold out pop charlatans  thang y'all) but there is a symmetry with these developments and that of Prog in general i.e. both Socialism and Prog in their formal traditional sense are now quaint anachronisms and can be considered 'dead in the water' -  music and life goes on and we all have to accede to the reality that the aesthetic idealism we craved and celebrated in the 70's has been supplanted by a pragmatic wish for new music that obeys the market forces that govern our current listening climate. Personally, at 50 years old I am probably too old to follow this path but it's real and it's happening NOW Re the independence reference, I cannot speak for Wales but for Scotland, the credibility of our autonomy/stand-alone status appears to rest upon the rest of the world becoming addicted to shortbread, whisky and porridge OR Westminster ceding royalties to a Scottish parliament for North-sea Oil and gas.

manofmystery wrote: The Doctor wrote: I would classify myself as a social democrat.  Sadly, there aren't that many of us here in the states, and neither of our major parties support social democrat policies anymore.  America is generally a pretty right-wing country which is evidenced by the fact that about half of the country sees our current rather centrist president as some rabid, foaming at the mouth socialist.      ...when clearly he's a facist.  Right-wing, ha, no such thing.  It's an authoritarian country, sure, but that's a result of both of these fictional "wings" holding too much power over the citizenry.  Of course, I'm guessing the solution from this thread would be more central planning... you know... just by... umm... a different set of dunces than we have now.   Actually, I should just be slarti-bombing this thread with cartoons that I never come back to address.

Centrist compared to what? On the authoritarian-libertarian axis, there's no way you can argue he's anywhere near the middle. On the left authoritarian-right authoritarian axis you may have more of a point.

Ancient Tree wrote:   but this will sound a noobish question: dont libertarians support capitalistic system?

To a fault.

Slartibartfast wrote: Ancient Tree wrote:   but this will sound a noobish question: dont libertarians support capitalistic system?  To a fault.

Says the expert on all things libertarian... 

Edited by The T - June 22 2012 at 19:27

Also from a former Social Democrat f**k Tony Blair.

That "mid way" crap is just a weak ass attempt at masking it.
IMO the only true social democracies are the nordic countries.
Well there may be others but certainly not the UK

Also remember, social democracy DOES support capitalism, and a general free market capitalism. Including school vouchers in Sweden, and many have de centralized minimum wage (or none at all)

So before the capitalism bashing resumes remember what exactly it is your espousing. It's not socialism, nor democratic socialism.

edit: oh and since everyone on PA loves a history lesson...I'll spare you. Yes, I know Social Democracy used to support class struggle and the replacement of Capitalism.
Used to...that was pre WWII. The idea has shed those notions...


Edited by JJLehto - June 22 2012 at 20:00

Vompatti wrote: Social democracy is one of capitalism's many disguises.

Possibly the thread's most sensible coment.

I'm farvorously social democrat, but some of its child ideologies (such as cultural marxism) what is destroying the Western Culture and Europe's indigenous populations from inside. I am NOT trolling.

I'm an independent because no political ideology works all of the time.

The Doctor wrote: CCVP wrote: Vompatti wrote: Social democracy is one of capitalism's many disguises. Possibly the thread's most sensible coment. I'm farvorously social democrat, but some of its child ideologies (such as cultural marxism) what is destroying the Western Culture and Europe's indigenous populations from inside. I am NOT trolling. I agree.  The left has become kind of silly with some of its cultural ideologies.  I am certainly not a cultural marxist, although economically I am most definitely of the socialist persuasion.  I do wish the left would stick to economic issues and leave things like feminism, cultural relativism and especially political correctness behind.  But, alas....

Quite true. Feminism and political correctness have all done it's job and have been depleeded of meaning since at the very least the late 80's/early 90's. The left should take it less seriously. But, then again, the left (and the social sciences, taking a broader view) was born with the premise of not only making it better for the "people" economically, but also discussing and fighting privileges and other such things. It happens that those privileges don't exist anymore in most western world and when they try and take their ideology to where really exist privileges . . . .Well,  you can see how these people are treat elsewhere from Europe and some circles in the Americas.

The greens are also ridiculous sometimes and should really take a look in the mirror and examine their data better before protesting and making preposterous allegations that are "100% scientific", but turn out to be pure misinformation.