Faith Based Prog

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: I said it many times: Even when I'm a Catholic and for that reason a Christian, I can't accept religious praising Rock or Prog (Catholic, Protestant Christian, Jewish or any determined religion), because I believe music has to be free, and when used to make propaganda for a determined religion (Also applicable for music used to support a determined political party), stops being artistic to become an instrument for propaganda, almost as a jingle. Another problem specifically with SOME Christian music, is that it is used to attack other beliefs or even disbelief (A good example is Sola Scriptura, a blatant attack against Catholicism), and to send subliminal messages to minors that buy the album for the music and receive intensive preach. Spiritual music is OK, love the lyrics of Livegren when he was searching for a spiritual truth or Wakeman religious music without preaching, but guys like Morse make me sick...Music is for the stages...Evangelism is for pulpits. In the case of political music, a good example is Silvio Rodriguez, his music is sublime, but when he makes lyrics to support the dictatorship of   Fidel Castro (who allowed him to live better than 99% of the Cubans), is just selling his art. Don't want to sound harsh, but his is my honest opinion. Iván

Interesting post Ivan certainly. I too am not a fan of spiritually oriented popular music but wouldn't be able to justify my misgivings in the way you have done. If an artist is a devout Christian/Muslim/Buddhist/Hindu etc and simply wants to do what every other songwriter has ever done since the dawn of time i.e. express the things that he or she feels are the most important in their lives at any given time, why shouldn't they praise a source of inspiration, strength and succour?
The artist has very little control over how such sentiments are manipulated and exploited afterwards by religious and political entities for their own disingenuous purposes. You also appear to believe that followers of any given religious creed shouldn't be allowed to criticise another faith? (Yet you condemn someone like Castro?)

I think you mean this:
Every spirit makes its house, but afterwards the house confines the spirit.(RW Emerson)

I mean this:
To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing - (Aristotle)

BTW  For the sake of clarity, I'm an atheist


Edited by ExittheLemming - March 09 2012 at 18:20

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:   But when asked why did he hides that Luther was the most fanatic anti Semitic that could make Hitler look as a child he answers that he had no knowledge of Luther's Rabid Antisemitism, and his reply is: Then one day I was looking for something on the Internet, and came across these anti-Semitic remarks by Martin Luther, and I was really disheartened and felt strongly that I should say so. I want people to know that I know. I didn't feel like I should scrap the album, because I still feel that God used Luther to bring more light to the world and the church. http://www.thefish.com/music/interviews/11618107/Solely-Sola-Scriptura%3f/ If he atacks the Pope, the Saints and our beliefs, he should also make a song saying that Luther said:  "If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the river Elbe, hang a stone around his neck and push him over with the words `I baptize thee in the name of Abraham'." (Martin Luther  - The Jews and their Lies) That would be honesty, what he does is hypocrisy  In the same way, if a Catholic made a song about Luther being antisemitic, he should also say that the Church was anti-Semitic also. That's why I don't believe in Christia, Catholic or whatever Prog.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: ExittheLemming wrote:   Interesting post Ivan certainly. I too am not a fan of spiritually oriented popular music but wouldn't be able to justify my misgivings in the way you have done. If an artist is a devout Christian/Muslim/Buddhist/Hindu etc and simply wants to do what every other songwriter has ever done since the dawn of time i.e. express the things that he or she feels are the most important in their lives at any given time, why shouldn't they praise a source of inspiration, strength and succour?   You don't get my point. It's Ok to praise the creator in a song (even when it's not my favorite lyric). Let's not be too picky about 'which' creator here as there's loads to choose from but I'm glad you have bestowed your seal of approval on this practice. (Are atheist musicians allowed to write songs critical of their parents?) It's not OK, to EVANGELIZE PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT TO BE EVANGELIZED in an album if you don't want to share someone's beliefs, you won't - whether you learn of those beliefs in a newspaper, novel, CD, DVD, movie, TV show, from a drunk in a bar or bible. You are clearly terrified that art will somehow legitimise or lend credence to those beliefs that you personally do not approve of. (You don't have the right NOT to be offended) It's even worst to attack the beliefs of others to SELL your belief. That's very naive Ivan, in your cramped cosmology politics, commerce, religion and art are in little neat separate boxes with not a trace of spillage. These things are inextricably entwined and as an intelligent adult you know that. Science has continually 'attacked' the prevailing beliefs of others for centuries and our knowledge, quality of life and achievements as a race countenance this, so amen to that. ExittheLemming wrote:   The artist has very little control over how such sentiments are manipulated and exploited afterwards by religious and political entities for their own disingenuous purposes.   But this guys are manipulating THEMSELVES, look at Morse, he attacks not only papacy, but also our most sacred beliefs, like Saints. Is no-one allowed to criticise the papacy because the latter mortals have bestowed infallibility upon themselves? You're too smart to believe that (I hope) Sticking the word 'sacred' in front of anything does not grant it an armistice. But when asked why did he hides that Luther was the most fanatic anti Semitic that could make Hitler look as a child he answers that he had no knowledge of Luther's Rabid Antisemitism, and his reply is: Then one day I was looking for something on the Internet, and came across these anti-Semitic remarks by Martin Luther, and I was really disheartened and felt strongly that I should say so. I want people to know that I know. I didn't feel like I should scrap the album, because I still feel that God used Luther to bring more light to the world and the church. http://www.thefish.com/music/interviews/11618107/Solely-Sola-Scriptura%3f/ If he atacks the Pope, the Saints and our beliefs, he should also make a song saying that Luther said:  "If I had to baptize a Jew, I would take him to the river Elbe, hang a stone around his neck and push him over with the words `I baptize thee in the name of Abraham'." (Martin Luther  - The Jews and their Lies) That would be honesty, what he does is hypocrisy  In the same way, if a Catholic made a song about Luther being antisemitic, he should also say that the Church was anti-Semitic also. That's why I don't believe in Christia, Catholic or whatever Prog. I never mentioned Martin Luther, but he's a knee-jerk target for catholics certainly, being the ultimate 'lapsed catholic' so to speak. Luther's anti-semitism is widely documented and I would not condone such sentiments. If Morse did not know of Luther's anti-Semitism what gives you the right to castigate him as a hypocrite? (unless you have access to his thought processes, like say ....a God would have) ExittheLemming wrote: You also appear to believe that followers of any given religious creed shouldn't be allowed to criticize another faith? (Yet you condemn someone like Castro?)   I don't have a problem with people criticizing, Bush Obama or whoever they want, but making us believe this propaganda is art, pisses me. I criticize Castro, it's OK, but I don't make an album, sell it to people (take their money) and say it's art and not just politic diatribe  Criticize what you want, that's perfect, it's a right, but if you want to make a song of propaganda, it's a jingle. Iván So, we can be critical of anybody as long as we don't use art as the medium for such expression? Ergo, Mr Morse only learned to become a highly skilled and imaginative musician and arranger as a vehicle for his real agenda: attacking other people's value systems and beliefs? I know I'm habitually sarcastic Ivan but I'm trying real hard here just to remain polite as what you've posted is all just rabid and shrill intolerance of those who don't share your own insular values.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Just to end this issue...Nobody is free of criticism.....My point is that Rock can't be used for that purpose without becoming a jingle. Iván

(sigh...) You always do this Ivan, decide to end the issue when you have no answers to someone's points (apart from the Luther issue - which you brought up originally not me, there is no argument, no rebuttal, no debate, no refutation ..just you regurgitating verbatim what you said before ad infinitum



Edited by ExittheLemming - March 10 2012 at 01:21

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Catcher10 wrote: LirazelsOdyssey wrote: Just finished Sola Scriptura.... sitting here weeping.... Listening to is over again.  If ever there was an album for such a time as this... THIS IS IT!!!< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">   So safe to say you missed Neal on his T2 Tour last May at EMP? If so that is too bad....fiercly powerful prog show. He played the entire T2 album. You can read my live review here from that show.

And after the show, everyone (except Portnoy) just hung around to chat.
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Edited by Ambient Hurricanes - March 10 2012 at 08:06

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: I think I have replied to each and every one of your arguments Iván

No you ain't matey. All you have said is that if any artist expresses religious or spiritual views via the medium of art (in this case music) he is brainwashing or indoctrinating his audience. You then proceed to illustrate this with 'proof' that Morse's intention is to proselytize his audience because he states 'I'm glad people are paying attention to what I'm saying' - I'm sure every songwriter in the world would be delighted that an audience takes an interest in their lyrics to the extent that even their rejection would at least prompt their consideration by the listener..
What seems to have completely escaped your attention is the possibility that an individual just may agree with a religious or secular opinion expressed in the medium of art using their own judgement, intellect, experience and intuition. This does not make that individual an indoctrinated or brainwashed zombie now does it? Presumably you have also started a petition to have religious devotional art stretching back millennia which includes many of the finest masterpieces ever created, burned in the street (just in case they either contain subliminal messages or inspire blind, unthinking and unswerving adherence to the artist's covert spiritual agenda)

I agree with Iain in this debate.  I can totally listen to Morse's music and lyrics without changing my opinion or being indoctrinated. He can write what he wants to his music as far as I'm concerned.

Snow Dog wrote: I agree with Iain in this debate.  I can totally listen to Morse's music and lyrics without changing my opinion or being indoctrinated. He can write what he wants to his music as far as I'm concerned.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 10 2012 at 16:39

Ambient Hurricanes wrote: QUOTE=Tuck] Catcher10 wrote: LirazelsOdyssey wrote: Just finished Sola Scriptura.... sitting here weeping.... Listening to is over again.  If ever there was an album for such a time as this... THIS IS IT!!!< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0">   So safe to say you missed Neal on his T2 Tour last May at EMP? If so that is too bad....fiercly powerful prog show. He played the entire T2 album. You can read my live review here from that show.   And after the show, everyone (except Portnoy) just hung around to chat.

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Adrian SnellFireflake (1975) is a prog rock album.