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Posted: February 20 2012 at 07:08
I used to think it was Alex, but actually they just took Geddy's natural speaking voice and put a bunch of effects on it until it came out like it was on the recording. I think there's a video on youtube somewhere of him rapping in his normal voice over the track, and he doesn't actually sound that bad, although nowhere near actual rapping technique.
Joined: February 07 2012
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Posted: February 20 2012 at 09:07
Hm, I always thought it was common knowledge that Geddy did the rap. And why wouldn't he? It doesn't exactly take witchcraft to alter a voice.
A quick websearch corroborates it, here are a couple of examples:
from Wikipedia - Roll the Bones (song): "This rap is performed by bassist/vocalist
Geddy Lee; his altered voice is achieved through a drastic lowering of
pitch and adding various effects."
from a Neil Peart interview: "...we did think of
trying to get a real rapper in to do it, and we even experimented with
female voices, and ultimately found that that treated version of Geddy's
voice was the most satisfying as creating the persona that we wanted to
get across, and was also the most satisfying to listen to..."
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Posted: February 20 2012 at 09:41
i just saw "tapfret" says in the previous page that let's admit that james labrie is horrible ,. and i must say that he is one of my least favourite singers of all time!! but in the same time i love him in "scenes from a memory" and "images and words" other than that i can't bear another DT album!! anyone feels like me out there??
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Posted: February 20 2012 at 10:51
sagichim wrote:
i just saw "tapfret" says in the previous page that let's admit that james labrie is horrible ,. and i must say that he is one of my least favourite singers of all time!! but in the same time i love him in "scenes from a memory" and "images and words" other than that i can't bear another DT album!! anyone feels like me out there??
Quite possibly he might be for me too, other than 'non singers' like Uli Roth. I really dislike Neal Morse and Steve Hogarth's singing but at least they are kinda sleepy so you can stop paying attention to them. Not so with LaBrie.
Joined: December 25 2011
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Posted: February 20 2012 at 17:06
Capt Fongsby is right; they've confirmed in interviews that Geddy did the rap, though I can't think of any off the top of my head besides the ones he quoted. I actually used to think it was Alex for some reason. They lowered the pitch of his voice on the track, and if you raise the pitch you can hear him loud and clear:
Joined: April 19 2011
Location: America
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Points: 877
Posted: February 21 2012 at 11:08
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
dennismoore,
Coming from the perspective of someone who once hated harsh vocals and then grew to appreciate them, I think it's important to realize that growls/harsh vocals are one component of the music and don't define an entire artist/piece. There's a difference between "noise music" and noise in music. Add to that the fact that harsh vocals aren't just noise; because they are made by a human voice, they can have quite a bit of emotional clout. Portraying negative emotions in music can help listeners to restrain those emotions in real life and keep them in their proper bounds and proper direction. This happens when the listener puts himself in the place of the performer and relates to his emotions, and it's called catharsis. Also, harsh vocals can function as a kind of percussion; think of them as melodic percussion, in that they flow like a melody but have a percussive timbre.
With regards to the debate over modern era vs. the old days, it was neither better nor worse back then than it is now. Each age has its own joys and sorrows, conveniences and challenges. Technological advances have, in ways, made life better, but they also have pitfalls, including the way in which they encourage individualistic thinking. It's chronological snobbery to try and elevate one era as better than another.
Hi Ambient Hurricanes,
Yes, I do think you have something with the catharsis theory. I know two very educated IT professionals with very stressful work and while at one time they enjoyed more classical music-prog, they now listen to this most hateful & screaming rock that is played at a child's level musicially. To each his own and these two people are obviously quite happy with their current choices in music.
You wrote about chronological snobbery.. that would be perhaps for example, arguing the 50s & 60s. An Elvis or a BeachBoys thing. What is happening now compared to the glory days of prog in the 1970s is a real lack of talent. This is not my opinion. It is from a long interview with a guy called Rick Wakman who plays an instrument and has made a few records. He said, and we'll need to dig up the actual quoute... that today's record industry does not care about promoting talented musicians, he mentions one Fraser Thorneycroft-Smith. Mr. Wakeman called him the next Eric Clapton, and said the world will never know because the music business is not about promoting talented musicians now.
I am not breaking new ground here.
Oh and nobody answered my question: but I guess by today's standards for singers then in fact:
Tiny Tim was indeed a great singer!
Cheers,
DM
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
Joined: April 19 2011
Location: America
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 11:39
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
dennismoore wrote:
Hi Equality 7-2521,
If you enjoy Mr. patton as an artist, that is as good as anybody enjoying any other artist, including myself. However....
There are just so many things wrong with your argument. First, millions of people can NOT sing. Proper singing is very difficult. First is pitch. Most people think they can sing but are shocked to learn how off key they are. Oh and there is breath control and dynamics and projection.... Yeah man, you couldn't be more wrong here. Talent with an external instrument or a human voice is "everything" you just made my case for me. Many very wealthy & famous rock bands actually have little talent. Talent is not emphasized in today's corporate music business. In addition, nobody needs to emulate Mr. Patton, as everyone has their own timbre in their voice. What he does with his voice? Different story and it is quite simple to bark & talk with a mic. If he is popular? I can not judge or speak against that. That is down to individule choice.
You spoke of Stravinsky. He innovated, which should happen in music. Keith Emerson stuck knives in his keyboard, but he still actually played his keyboard. He is judged for what he played not his stage antics.
You wrote: "There are very few people who have a good enough feel for rhythm to be a stellar rapper.
You are kidding right??? All RAP is spoken(not sung) in the same basic cadence. Millions of millitary servicemen
"RAP" in a cadence as they march. It is probably the most basic musical element that probably 98% of the Earth's population can do. I think you misread the mega-corporate music industry. The industry is not about promoting
hundreds or artists based on talent like in the past. It is about MEGA-Promoting a few RAP, Alternative, Metal, etc.. bands. Just because the band is No.1 does not mean they are any good or earned their way there. It simply means they are the ones the industry chooses to promote at the time. I don't think I am breaking any new ground here.
for making the strangest sounds with his voice. That did not make him a great singer.
You like what you like that is cool. Please do not call my arguments "silly". The only thing remotely silly about my musical affinities is my undying enjoyment of 1969-1976 Elton John albums, oh and Three Dog Night.
Dude! Check out Three Dog Night singer Chuck Negron, That dude can sing and he had talent and I can't think
of a better example to show what an actual singer is.
Cheers!
DM
Well since the entire idea of singing seems to be producing noises with your vocal chords, Mike Patton is able to produce sounds that few others can. I'm not really sure what your argument is. The only thing you're saying is that you do not enjoy Patton, but you try to dress it up in verbiage to make it seem like your opinion is correct.
First, you need to look up the definition of singing or consult with some actual singers or vocal coaches. You will find
that your definition of singing is actually the definition of "speaking". Oh and yes, I sit at a computer all day
and "dress up the verbiage to convince others that my opinions are correct". There's quite a bit of $$$ in that, actually. I think if you re-read all my comments, you'll see that I am talking about people that can actually sing VS people who are pop stars and are famous. Bare Naked Ladies comes quickly to mind.
To be clear with you. I have nothing against Mr. Patton. I started my post with questions about actually "singing".
Are you suggesting that those who took screaming or rap and made them popular devices did not innovate? Or that somehow they're not actually singing?
You never addressed my question, was Tiny Tim a great singer? He did everything with his voice that you say.
Oh, yes, I did suggest and I still contend that rap is not singing.
What does cadence have to do with rap? It's about the manipulation of rhythm. You're trying to interpret everything from your narrow view of music. I don't know what the point of arguing with you is. I think you've never heard a rap artist outside of the mainstream.
Uh, like dude,.. ":cadence" has everything to do with rap. All rap is spoken in the same redundant cadence Instead of insulting people like calling my view of music "narrow" you might wanna lean some basic facts about sound, rhythm or singing to hep you get your point accross better. To start:
Capt Fongsby is right; they've confirmed in interviews that Geddy did the rap, though I can't think of any off the top of my head besides the ones he quoted. I actually used to think it was Alex for some reason. They lowered the pitch of his voice on the track, and if you raise the pitch you can hear him loud and clear:
Joined: December 25 2011
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 16:34
dennismoore wrote:
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
dennismoore,
Coming from the perspective of someone who once hated harsh vocals and then grew to appreciate them, I think it's important to realize that growls/harsh vocals are one component of the music and don't define an entire artist/piece. There's a difference between "noise music" and noise in music. Add to that the fact that harsh vocals aren't just noise; because they are made by a human voice, they can have quite a bit of emotional clout. Portraying negative emotions in music can help listeners to restrain those emotions in real life and keep them in their proper bounds and proper direction. This happens when the listener puts himself in the place of the performer and relates to his emotions, and it's called catharsis. Also, harsh vocals can function as a kind of percussion; think of them as melodic percussion, in that they flow like a melody but have a percussive timbre.
With regards to the debate over modern era vs. the old days, it was neither better nor worse back then than it is now. Each age has its own joys and sorrows, conveniences and challenges. Technological advances have, in ways, made life better, but they also have pitfalls, including the way in which they encourage individualistic thinking. It's chronological snobbery to try and elevate one era as better than another.
Hi Ambient Hurricanes,
Yes, I do think you have something with the catharsis theory. I know two very educated IT professionals with very stressful work and while at one time they enjoyed more classical music-prog, they now listen to this most hateful & screaming rock that is played at a child's level musicially. To each his own and these two people are obviously quite happy with their current choices in music.
You wrote about chronological snobbery.. that would be perhaps for example, arguing the 50s & 60s. An Elvis or a BeachBoys thing. What is happening now compared to the glory days of prog in the 1970s is a real lack of talent. This is not my opinion. It is from a long interview with a guy called Rick Wakman who plays an instrument and has made a few records. He said, and we'll need to dig up the actual quoute... that today's record industry does not care about promoting talented musicians, he mentions one Fraser Thorneycroft-Smith. Mr. Wakeman called him the next Eric Clapton, and said the world will never know because the music business is not about promoting talented musicians now.
I am not breaking new ground here.
Oh and nobody answered my question: but I guess by today's standards for singers then in fact:
Tiny Tim was indeed a great singer!
Cheers,
DM
So is it really a lack of talent, or just a surpression of talent on the part of the musical mainstream? I agree with you that today's mainstream music industry doesn't promote talent but merely tries to churn out mass produced, dumbed down popular culture for the purpose of making money. But that doesn't diminish the actual talent that is out there, even though it's not widely known. Most of the music on this site is outside of the mainstream, and are on independant labels that, at least to an extent, allow artistic freedom and promote real talent. When I and the others on this site defend extreme artists, we're not promoting "child's level" music but the work of some ridiculously talented artists. If you get past the distortion and harsh vocals, what you will hear is some insanely complex and well composed music that is unique and special. Even the harsh vocals themselves require real talent, because if you're going to use your voice in that way without hurting yourself, you have to learn the method of classical singing, also. It's okay if you don't like that kind of music, because each of us responds to music in a different way. But don't dismiss it as talentless, because that's simply not true.
I'm going to have to look up that guitar player you mentioned, btw...sounds interesting.
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: February 21 2012 at 19:40
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
So is it really a lack of talent, or just a surpression of talent on the part of the musical mainstream? I agree with you that today's mainstream music industry doesn't promote talent but merely tries to churn out mass produced, dumbed down popular culture for the purpose of making money. But that doesn't diminish the actual talent that is out there, even though it's not widely known. Most of the music on this site is outside of the mainstream, and are on independant labels that, at least to an extent, allow artistic freedom and promote real talent. When I and the others on this site defend extreme artists, we're not promoting "child's level" music but the work of some ridiculously talented artists. If you get past the distortion and harsh vocals, what you will hear is some insanely complex and well composed music that is unique and special. Even the harsh vocals themselves require real talent, because if you're going to use your voice in that way without hurting yourself, you have to learn the method of classical singing, also. It's okay if you don't like that kind of music, because each of us responds to music in a different way. But don't dismiss it as talentless, because that's simply not true.
I'm going to have to look up that guitar player you mentioned, btw...sounds interesting.
Exactly, the mainstream may not promote talent but it doesn't mean WE here who are into prog rock and such are judging by the standards of the mainstream today. And it's not as if the mainstream's standards are so bad today; there are probably fewer throat singers in pop now and fewer Paul Young cases than in the 80s. Irrespective of all that, Mary Fahl, for e.g., is an incredible singer by any measure so just the fact that some of us are more open minded about harsh vocals and recognize that it does in fact require skill and is not just shouting and screaming does not mean standards for a singer today are very low. How high can rock singing standards be anyway, technically, if Bob Dylan is considered a great singer?
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: February 22 2012 at 02:09
dennismoore wrote:
He said, and we'll need to dig up the actual quoute... that today's record industry does not care about promoting talented musicians, he mentions one Fraser Thorneycroft-Smith. Mr. Wakeman called him the next Eric Clapton, and said the world will never know because the music business is not about promoting talented musicians now.
I am not breaking new ground here.
Perhaps, your last line there holds the key to your own question? Now, I have not heard of this guitarist that you say Wakeman called the next Clapton so my answer is purely hypothetical. But do tell me what is so exciting about the next Clapton in the 21st century? Since the birth of Krautrock, emphasis has shifted gradually to rhythm, texture and ambience as the conventional functions of melody and harmony reached their logical conclusion in rock. There is a reason why a Ralf Florian or a Brian Eno are considered revolutionary with regard to popular music. So, really, the next Clapton....might well be old hat? Who's the next Johnny Greenwood? Would so want to hear, pretty please. I am exaggerating, I would love to see a good blues guitarist in concert but what does it offer to me at all as a new studio experience.
In a nutshell, perhaps some talented musicians don't get encouragement because they have not kept pace with the changing flavours of music? There may still be some of those who deserved recognition and were denied but that's nothing new. The only musicians from the 60s and the 70s, practically, that we talk about are those who got to record something that fetched decent sales. There must have been so many others who never got beyond a few gigs for no fault of their own. At least, today they can use the internet and social media to spread word about them and get some local following even if they never hit the bigtime.
Joined: August 11 2005
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Posted: February 22 2012 at 12:49
dennismoore wrote:
Well since the entire idea of singing seems to be producing noises with your vocal chords, Mike Patton is able to produce sounds that few others can. I'm not really sure what your argument is. The only thing you're saying is that you do not enjoy Patton, but you try to dress it up in verbiage to make it seem like your opinion is correct.
First, you need to look up the definition of singing or consult with some actual singers or vocal coaches. You will find
that your definition of singing is actually the definition of "speaking". Oh and yes, I sit at a computer all day
and "dress up the verbiage to convince others that my opinions are correct". There's quite a bit of $$$ in that, actually. I think if you re-read all my comments, you'll see that I am talking about people that can actually sing VS people who are pop stars and are famous. Bare Naked Ladies comes quickly to mind.
Really a color pyramid? I didn't define singing; I said the idea of speaking is to produce sound. If you disagree with that, then there's no point in us talking. You're talking about your narrow opinion of what you consistute as singing and further good singing. You're not trying to justify anything. You're just saying I think this so I'm right. That's fine; this all boils down to subjective stuff. Just don't try to argue with other people's choices.
To be clear with you. I have nothing against Mr. Patton. I started my post with questions about actually "singing".
Are you suggesting that those who took screaming or rap and made them popular devices did not innovate? Or that somehow they're not actually singing?
You never addressed my question, was Tiny Tim a great singer? He did everything with his voice that you say.
Oh, yes, I did suggest and I still contend that rap is not singing.
Fine rap isn't singing. But it's vocals, and the question asked us to mention top 5 vocalists. It's not harder or easier than singing. Those who rap aren't more or less talented than those who sing.
I'm not that familiar with him. He seems to be a good singer. Your question is just some straw man you set up that only makes sense to you though.
What does cadence have to do with rap? It's about the manipulation of rhythm. You're trying to interpret everything from your narrow view of music. I don't know what the point of arguing with you is. I think you've never heard a rap artist outside of the mainstream.
Uh, like dude,.. ":cadence" has everything to do with rap. All rap is spoken in the same redundant cadence Instead of insulting people like calling my view of music "narrow" you might wanna lean some basic facts about sound, rhythm or singing to hep you get your point accross better. To start:
Definition 1 is not the one you used by every context clue unless you honestly want to say that every hip-hop lyric is delivered in the same manner as a marching chant. Again, if you think that, then you've listened to about 3 rap songs in your life.
Cheers,
DM
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Joined: April 19 2011
Location: America
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Posted: February 22 2012 at 13:07
rogerthat wrote:
dennismoore wrote:
Rick Wakeman said,... that today's record industry does not care about promoting talented musicians, he mentions one Fraser Thorneycroft-Smith. Mr. Wakeman called him the next Eric Clapton, and said the world will never know because the music business is not about promoting talented musicians now.
Perhaps, your last line there holds the key to your own question? Now, I have not heard of this guitarist that you say Wakeman called the next Clapton so my answer is purely hypothetical. But do tell me what is so exciting about the next Clapton in the 21st century?
Oh, no, no no, that is not what Wakeman was talking about. You spun it into a bad thing, as in an immitation or copy
of Clapton. Wakeman meant in terms of the "next big thing" or "next great guitarist". God knows nobody needs
a "copy" of any musician. I thought that goes without saying here in is forum.
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
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