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Sean Trane 
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20390
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 Posted: February 19 2012 at 03:10 |
 Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Agreed. There's too much vitriol on each side of the debate and I think each side sometimes lacks empathy for one of the victims.
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Yup.... I'm kind of surprised this thread is still going on, with everything said about 10 times if not more.... Obviouly a deaf dialogue.... And there are no victims... just people trying to avoid becoming victims of unwanted pregnancies and dealing with THEIR bodies ..... which obviously only concerns THEM, not anyone else. Once people stop meddling about other people's fundamental liberties, things will go a lot better on this planet
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32550
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Posted: February 19 2012 at 07:35 |
Sean Trane wrote:
And there are no victims...
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: February 19 2012 at 07:52 |
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There will never be a consensus achieved between those who believe that
life is sacred when the genetic material comes together and God gets to
decide and controls if the fertilized egg is implanted and develops and
those of us who respect the fact that every conception doesn't result in
a baby.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: February 19 2012 at 08:14 |
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You know not everyone against abortion believes in a god thing.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: February 19 2012 at 08:52 |
Though I am a lefty on many issues, the hubris of the pro-choice movement is so disgusting. The most common position "It's the individual woman's body and that's all there is to say about it," is not supported by legal or expert opinion, and yet the movement acts as if anyone who argues against this is a prehistoric idiot.
There can be intelligent discussion about this topic. I've had many of them with people who come down on the opposite side when forced to take a stand. But none of us should be taking a stand. This is a complex issue that we as a society have our heads buried in the sand because of the rah-rah make my side win fight.
Until the child's rights are taken into account, the issue won't go away. Until women and men are seen as truly equal humans, the issue won't go away. Until we can say yes there is a such thing as good, healthy adult sexuality and that it can take many forms, this issue is not going away.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: February 19 2012 at 11:09 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
You know not everyone against abortion believes in a god thing.
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You do know that the majority do.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: February 19 2012 at 11:18 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
You know not everyone against abortion believes in a god thing. |
You do know that the majority do.
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Source???
Do a little more research on the issue. From a variety of sources. It's alot murkier than you seem to think.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: February 19 2012 at 11:40 |
Negoba wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
You know not everyone against abortion believes in a god thing. |
You do know that the majority do.
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Source???
Do a little more research on the issue. From a variety of sources. It's alot murkier than you seem to think. |
Research??? The issue is out there, it's not like some hidden thing I need to investigate. I know there is a minority out there that doesn't believe in God and thinks abortion is wrong. You can divide that group up by when they think an abortion is actually occurring. To believe they are the majority is naive.
Edited by Slartibartfast - February 19 2012 at 11:41
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: February 19 2012 at 11:44 |
Sean Trane wrote:
And there are no victims... just people trying to avoid becoming victims of unwanted pregnancies and dealing with THEIR bodies ..... which obviously only concerns THEM, not anyone else. Once people stop meddling about other people's fundamental liberties, things will go a lot better on this planet |
Please Sean..NO VICTIMS?????? What about the baby in process of being born?
- Unwanted pregnancies: Use a Condom, a pill, the pill of the next morning or whatever...Why in hell wait until 26 or 28 weeks to decide it's unwanted?...If you don't want kids, have safe sex, point, and if it fails, you can use early abortion (not that I agree, but in the 23 or 26 week is worst)
- Yes, the woman's body concerns to her, but the fetus is not her body..When will people learn this
As I said before, there are valid reasons for an abortion, but using it to justify careless sex is a crime.
Iván
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: February 19 2012 at 12:03 |
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In the end a fertilized egg inside a woman is the intersection of two human lives. But human reproduction ends in eggs not implanting and various forms of miscarriage. I want the state to support healthy babies being born. But if it's going to do that, I have no problem with birth control either. We don't live in a perfect world though do we?
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: February 19 2012 at 12:13 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Negoba wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
You know not everyone against abortion believes in a god thing. |
You do know that the majority do.
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Source???
Do a little more research on the issue. From a variety of sources. It's alot murkier than you seem to think. |
Research??? The issue is out there, it's not like some hidden thing I need to investigate. I know there is a minority out there that doesn't believe in God and thinks abortion is wrong. You can divide that group up by when they think an abortion is actually occurring. To believe they are the majority is naive.
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How do you really know though? And by majority what do you mean? 51% or 80%?
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
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Posted: February 19 2012 at 12:13 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Negoba wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
You know not everyone against abortion believes in a god thing. |
You do know that the majority do.
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Source???
Do a little more research on the issue. From a variety of sources. It's alot murkier than you seem to think. |
Research??? The issue is out there, it's not like some hidden thing I need to investigate. I know there is a minority out there that doesn't believe in God and thinks abortion is wrong. You can divide that group up by when they think an abortion is actually occurring. To believe they are the majority is naive.
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Your posts show a lack of delving into the issue. Just study the actual Roe decision and I think your views will be a little more nuanced.
The issue as it is in the media is not "out there.' It's a bunch of soundbites and yelling.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20390
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Posted: February 19 2012 at 17:03 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
And there are no victims... just people trying to avoid becoming victims of unwanted pregnancies and dealing with THEIR bodies ..... which obviously only concerns THEM, not anyone else. Once people stop meddling about other people's fundamental liberties, things will go a lot better on this planet |
Please Sean..NO VICTIMS?????? What about the baby in process of being born?
- Unwanted pregnancies: Use a Condom, a pill, the pill of the next morning or whatever...Why in hell wait until 26 or 28 weeks to decide it's unwanted?...If you don't want kids, have safe sex, point, and if it fails, you can use early abortion (not that I agree, but in the 23 or 26 week is worst)
- Yes, the woman's body concerns to her, but the fetus is not her body..When will people learn this
As I said before, there are valid reasons for an abortion, but using it to justify careless sex is a crime.
Iván |
Ivŕn, buddy  Let's not start the debate over...  it's being doing circles around for over 35 pages, and I was just saying how useless it was, because nobody on either side will admit they're wrong, especially those interfering with the basic inalieble human right to dispose of his/her body.... the foetus is not a human being, nor is it viable to live without its mother's womb ... PERIOD!!! (never mind the 26 or 28 weeks issue, 99% of the abortion are held way before that, so it's a moot point)
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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elegy12
Forum Newbie
Joined: February 18 2012
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2
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Posted: February 19 2012 at 18:37 |
Why is it the the majority of men don't understand...it is the womans right......it is their body. god or whatever had/has nothing to do with it. A foetus has no rights. Contraception is not 100% perfect, only not having sex is. Humans are humans...............and the choice must lie with the individual. This post has done nothing but counter argument....surely it is time for its end?
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: February 19 2012 at 18:55 |
elegy12 wrote:
Why is it the the majority of men don't understand...it is the womans right......it is their body. god or whatever had/has nothing to do with it.
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This is a horrible argument and it distresses me to think people actually use it a lot. If one supposes, as many do, that a fetus DOES have rights and is alive at conception and beyond, then the issue of a person killing it is just as much the concern of society AND in the jurisdiction of the law as any other crime. And I can't have an opinion with relevance on an issue because I'm a man? That is sexist, plain and simple.
I support abortion in many circumstances, so attacking a position based on that wouldn't do any good as a rebuttal.
elegy12 wrote:
A foetus has no rights. |
Now there's a good place to start instead of where you did.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: February 19 2012 at 18:57 |
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Why would a fetus have no rights?
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65513
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Posted: February 19 2012 at 19:05 |
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^ to the extent that a fetus's rights supersede a woman's rights is where the issue seems to be; the question is then why would an unborn person's rights supersede an already born person's rights. The reasonable answer, IMO, must be that it does not.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: February 19 2012 at 19:09 |
The T wrote:
Why would a fetus have no rights? |
Not that I necessarily agree with the idea, but one could say that life does indeed begin at conception. However, just because an organism is alive doesn't mean it deserves rights. The hows and whys of how things get rights is inherently subjective unless someone wants to take the easy way out and say whatever his religious dogma dictates. Rights could be endowed based on the degree of consciousness an organism has, the amount of self-awareness, the ability to feel pain. Some might say just because it comes from two homo sapiens that it deserves full rights from the onset of life. I don't think that is sufficient. I personally think our best estimate for the threshold after which abortions shouldn't be performed is an approximation of when a human fetus can feel pain. Which is tricky territory obviously, but simply saying that it can never happen even when it's just a collection of cells seems like nonsense from my POV. The concept of "rights" is a neat discussion to me. Rights come from society, not a creator, and they are subject to interpretation and change. Believing that our current conception of an inherent right is "always right" is foolish, IMO.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32550
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Posted: February 19 2012 at 21:01 |
Atavachron wrote:
^ to the extent that a fetus's rights supersede a woman's rights is where the issue seems to be; the question is then why would an unborn person's rights supersede an already born person's rights. The reasonable answer, IMO, must be that it does not.
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A born child supersedes a woman's rights. Yet by law the latter cannot kill her.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: February 19 2012 at 21:12 |
The T wrote:
Why would a fetus have no rights? |
Maybe in USA, but luckily not in my country
POLITICAL CONSTITUTION OF PERU Section I Concerning the Individual and Society Chapter I Fundamental Rights of the Individual
Article 2°.- Every individual has the right: 1. to life, his identity, his physical, psychological, and moral integrity, and his free fulfillment and well-being. Such rights exist from the time of conception in all ways that are beneficial |
The article is clear, fetus has right to life.
The special cases are regulated by law.
So you see Sean, things are not black or white what is right in USA is wrong in other parts of the world, and our constitution gives rights to the fetus from the moment of CONCEPTION.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 19 2012 at 21:15
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Abortion: Legal or Illegal
