Top 5 vocals

 

Hi Equality 7-2521,

 

If you enjoy Mr. patton as an artist, that is as good as anybody enjoying any other artist, including myself.  However....

 

There are just so many things wrong with your argument.  First, millions of people can NOT sing.  Proper singing is very difficult. First is pitch.  Most people think they can sing but are shocked to learn how off key they are.  Oh and there is breath control and dynamics and projection....  Yeah man, you couldn't be more wrong here. Talent with an external instrument or a human voice is "everything" you just made my case for me. Many very wealthy & famous rock bands actually have little talent.  Talent is not emphasized in today's corporate music business. In addition, nobody needs to emulate Mr. Patton, as everyone has their own timbre in their voice.  What he does with his voice? Different story and it is quite simple to bark & talk with a mic. If he is popular? I can not judge or speak against that.  That is down to individule choice.

 

You spoke of Stravinsky.  He innovated, which should happen in music.    Keith Emerson stuck knives in his keyboard, but he still actually played his keyboard.  He is judged for what he played not his stage antics.

 

You wrote: "There are very few people who have a good enough feel for rhythm to be a stellar rapper.

You are kidding right???  All RAP is spoken(not sung) in the same basic cadence. Millions of millitary servicemen

"RAP" in a cadence as they march.  It is probably the most basic musical element that probably 98% of the Earth's population can do.  I think you misread the mega-corporate music industry.  The industry is not about promoting

hundreds or artists based on talent like in the past.  It is about MEGA-Promoting a few RAP, Alternative, Metal, etc.. bands.  Just because the band is No.1 does not mean they are any good or earned their way there.  It simply means they are the ones the industry chooses to promote at the time.  I don't think I am breaking any new ground here.

 

i dare to mention the great Tiny Tim. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiny_Tim_(musician)  He was wildly popular & famous

for making the strangest sounds with his voice.  That did not make him a great singer.

 

You like what you like that is cool.  Please do not call my arguments "silly".  The only thing remotely silly about my musical affinities is my undying enjoyment of 1969-1976 Elton John albums, oh and Three Dog Night.

 

Dude!  Check out Three Dog Night singer Chuck Negron,  That dude can sing and he had talent and I can't think

of a better example to show what an actual singer is.

 

DM

 

 

 

dennismoore wrote: I do not buy the "modern" or "harsh times" call for harsher music argument.  Why?  Most plantiff or "punk" or RAP bands rally against what they perceive as dark or "bad times".  Well compared to how life has been historically, we live in a calm, love-fest of an era in relative terms.  For some reason, "lower class" or very base actions have been introduced into music and have been acepted.(Ex. MTV showing a concert of a band who gave themselves enemas and the band collectively deficated on the audience in the front few rows.)  Why would people do this and be part of this?(At a musical level silly, not some wild porn driven fantasy, involving super-models...)

I don't agree with much of this.  First off, I don't think this is a calm era. 

You make great points, but I did not mean to say that America has it better then Asia, etc..  I mean in general.
My grandfather & his peers worldwide had a 6 day work week, NO medical insurance, no benefits.  My father
lived through a World War where entire cities were destroyed. Their parents lived in a world that 1 in 3 mothers died in childbirth because of more primitive medicine, "that" is what I meant.  Times have ALWAYS been tough and frankly much tougher for past generations.  Yes, you are right today we have many problems too, global economic mess, corporate corruption, etc...   Well said.  I still say things were in fact much tougher in prior generations.
I just read a bit about the Ottoman Empire, things were pretty damn hard in Turkey prior to 1910!  Modern Turks have it considerably better, for sure.  So there is still no reason to run around like Curt Cobain saying how horrible life is.
It just isn't in relative terms to how humans have always needed to struggle. 

If some rock star takes off his shirt and yells and screams it will not fix any of this.

Well, with reference to that Mike Patton, he is in fact singing in several patches there.  It may not be a style of singing you really like, but he IS hitting notes, he is carrying a tune. 

Yes, Mr. Patton certainly is above the punk rock screamers, yet you said it best "he is carrying a tune" that is about it.
People confuse mega popularity with mega talent. I do thank that is the case with Mr. Patton.  Can he sing? ok, sure.
Just because many people like him that does not make him talented.

Um, in that case, if difficulty is the only criterion, then I assure you extreme vocals ARE difficult to pull off day in day out.  Not that I personally attach much importance to technicality.  Yes, what opera singers do is tough but their singing usually doesn't speak to me emotionally. So, therefore...

I think our whole argument is summed up when say you don't attach " importance to technicality" like technicality is a bad thing or a not needed bonus thing.  Talent, practice and technical proficiency are everything in music,
unless you want to be the next "pop rock" sensation.

 
 

dennismoore wrote: Yes, these modern rock screamers need to protect their voices and not yell all the time, but it is not really that hard, many people talk loud and yell all the time and they keep their voices until their other parts wear down.

I won't really respond to this other than that this is ill informed.  

My above comment about "not that hard" was in relation to a real professional singer(not you & I).
If you think these yellers & rap artists are on par with real singers as far as what they need to maintain their voice, I find that unbelievable and I do think it is a "generation" thing.  Kinda "my generation" is as good as your old generation. An artist is not "talented" or professionally competent because a generation declares him that.
His/her art is self evident. Generations not withstanding.  And there are tried and true measures to define that talent, regardless what the "pop" culture claims.



[/QUOTE]

 

dennismoore wrote: You make great points, but I did not mean to say that America has it better then Asia, etc..  I mean in general. My grandfather & his peers worldwide had a 6 day work week, NO medical insurance, no benefits.  My father lived through a World War where entire cities were destroyed. Their parents lived in a world that 1 in 3 mothers died in childbirth because of more primitive medicine, "that" is what I meant.  Times have ALWAYS been tough and frankly much tougher for past generations.  Yes, you are right today we have many problems too, global economic mess, corporate corruption, etc...   Well said.  I still say things were in fact much tougher in prior generations. I just read a bit about the Ottoman Empire, things were pretty damn hard in Turkey prior to 1910!  Modern Turks have it considerably better, for sure.  So there is still no reason to run around like Curt Cobain saying how horrible life is. It just isn't in relative terms to how humans have always needed to struggle.  If some rock star takes off his shirt and yells and screams it will not fix any of this.

I was not comparing America and Asia.  I just pointed out that there is in fact conflict and strife in Asia.   I am sorry but I don't recall even the British empire opening fire on innocent civilians in Mumbai's busiest railway station.  So if people believe that the times are far more comfortable today, that is perhaps because they feel insulated from such violence (because there are no world wars now) and have become apathetic to the world's problems. 

dennismoore wrote: Yes, Mr. Patton certainly is above the punk rock screamers, yet you said it best "he is carrying a tune" that is about it. People confuse mega popularity with mega talent. I do thank that is the case with Mr. Patton.  Can he sing? ok, sure. Just because many people like him that does not make him talented.

Um, Patton sings, raps, growls on just this song apart from assimilating several other styles over the course of his career.  I honestly do not know of any other singer who uses all these styles of vocals regularly...there may well be, but he is certainly in a small minority in any case.  Which is why I referred to him as one of the most versatile singers in rock. 

dennismoore wrote: I think our whole argument is summed up when say you don't attach " importance to technicality" like technicality is a bad thing or a not needed bonus thing.  Talent, practice and technical proficiency are everything in music, unless you want to be the next "pop rock" sensation.

Once again, it takes a lot of practice to get right a harsh vocal technique and then be able to produce it every time in concert, over loud, distorted guitars.  The key here is to note that a 'screamer' or a 'shouter' is not actually screaming or shouting.  If you really did scream or shout all the time, you'd damage your voice very quickly.  What they are doing, in terms of voice production, is controlled and deliberate in just the same way as a singer carrying a tune; the only difference is in the harsh, violent effect. 

So my point was simply that technicality alone does not make a great singer.  Technical accomplishment gives a singer more options, ability to cover more material, hit a wider span of pitches.  But it is down to the singer's skills in emotional interpretation whether he/she can make something memorable with it.  Annie Haslam and Mariah Carey can both sing in the sixth octave and in fact, Carey can hit notes in the seventh.  And yet, how much does that necessarily say about them?  Christina Aguilera can do runs and melismas I haven't heard Stevie Wonder pull off but the ones he does are far more tasteful and add so much more to the music.  Tasteful...is that not a very subjective quality?  Is that not more perceptive than technical? 

I recall that Miles Davis quote, "Why play all the notes?  Only play the ones that are good."   Technicality gives the singer the ability to hit all the notes, in a manner of speaking, but art is about interpretation and presentation, not just technical skill.

 
 

dennismoore wrote: My above comment about "not that hard" was in relation to a real professional singer(not you & I). If you think these yellers & rap artists are on par with real singers as far as what they need to maintain their voice, I find that unbelievable and I do think it is a "generation" thing.  Kinda "my generation" is as good as your old generation. An artist is not "talented" or professionally competent because a generation declares him that. His/her art is self evident. Generations not withstanding.  And there are tried and true measures to define that talent, regardless what the "pop" culture claims.

No, I am sorry, you are very much mistaken there.  First of all, you are again generalizing yellers and rap artists as if they are all the same.  Each harsh vocal technique is different and, frequently, a singer cannot master them all.   If anything, even with a 'safe' technique, singers using harsh technique are  more prone to vocal strain than somebody who sings cleanly.  If you are just singing cleanly without using a wide  range, you don't need any significant voice maintenance.  My father is 55 and his voice hasn't lost much even though he hardly practices and has to attend to business tours frequently.   If you want to sing like Annie Haslam and maintain 3/4ths of that level till you are 64, then yes, that is specialized.  But how many, clean or harsh, can do that?  Not Lake, Daltrey,  Geddy, Gillan or other rock greats.  That is my point.  Contrary to your argument, even the great rock singers were more about expression and personality than technical skill.  Ronnie James Dio was another who kept belting magnificently until his last breath, but such singers are rare in rock.    


Edited by rogerthat - February 18 2012 at 23:02

Wow, I didn't know that.

That's awesome.

I can get up to an A5 (and I'm a guy) but I don't think you ever want to hear it