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Gamemako View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gamemako Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2012 at 14:30
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Consider the context.  I was clearly talking about federal taxes since I mentioned the IRS.


You were clearly repeating a misleading statement because you love reinforcing your beliefs with half-truths.

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


This is really cute.  LOL

"Every Republican era ended badly, but not Nixon, because he was just enjoying the effects of the previous administration!"  Wow.  Nice try.  LOL


Republicans are 1/4. I only mentioned LBJ because the Great Society was his damn baby, and you can see the rather large downward trend through the years leading up to Nixon's presidency. And hell, I didn't even say that was the case, I said that it could be argued (and I'm sure people have done so). Interpreting historical trends is not exactly a precise science.

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Would it serve your highness if I copied and pasted it from there to here?  Stern Smile


It would be nice if you didn't accuse others of being lazy for not searching high and low for your opinion. Angry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2012 at 15:03
Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:


Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:


Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Are you going to demonstrate (with evidence) how fiscal conservatives undo whatever well-meaning liberals enact, or lean on your smug political biases?


Look at your poverty chart. Every Republican era has ended with higher poverty than they started with until you hit Richard Nixon, who you could argue was still running on the gains from LBJ.

This is really cute.  LOL

"Every Republican era ended badly, but not Nixon, because he was just enjoying the effects of the previous administration!"  Wow.  Nice try.  LOL





Republicans are 1/4. I only mentioned LBJ because the Great Society was his damn baby, and you can see the rather large downward trend through the years leading up to Nixon's presidency. And hell, I didn't even say that was the case, I said that it could be argued (and I'm sure people have done so). Interpreting historical trends is not exactly a precise science.



How brave of you, hedging your remarks like that.  "It could be argued that your sister is a so and so, but notice that I'm not actually saying it, I'm just saying she could be!  I'm sure other people have made the case that your sister was a so and so, but not me!"  Either make an argument with data or don't engage please.  Wink

It's cute that you support Democrats as one would support a football team (how appropriate, since the Super Bowl is tomorrow).  To folks like you and Slart, Democrats are nothing but saints who just want to help those who never got a chance.  As long as there is a D beside your name, you are a god and can do no wrong.  But if there is an R before your name, you are an abomination to this world.  That's not how the real world works, and as long as people act like it is, we're screwed.

"I'll have them n****rs voting Democratic for two hundred years."

There's LBJ's compassion, by the way.  Thumbs Down

Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:


Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Would it serve your highness if I copied and pasted it from there to here?  Stern Smile


It would be nice if you didn't accuse others of being lazy for not searching high and low for your opinion. Angry



It's in the political discussion thread, where it belongs (and this discussion probably belongs).  Not hard to find.


Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Consider the context.  I was clearly talking about federal taxes since I mentioned the IRS.


You were clearly repeating a misleading statement because you love reinforcing your beliefs with half-truths.



And you could stop accusing others of being deceitful or stubborn for at most failing to add the qualifier "federal" before the noun "taxes" in pointing out that some people don't pay federal taxes even though the context was clear enough.  Stern Smile



Edited by Epignosis - February 04 2012 at 16:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2012 at 15:21
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

But not all voters earn income, either, and the way the IRS has things set up in the US, many wage-earners don't pay taxes at all.
So I gather - and I think that is a consequece of suffrage and taxation too - and again, there are too many factors involved to give a precise explanation (in as much as any precision in economics is a notional concept rather than an actual reality). Economics are not governed by linear x+y=z equations or straight-forward causality - removing (or reforming) one taxation system without addressing some of the higher order factors merely moves the problem around... and over the past 150 years that is all taxation reform has ever done - moved the burden of taxation from one group to another.
 
All wage earners pay tax - either direct or indirect, and they claim benefits, exemptions, allowances or deductibles dependant upon their personal circumstances - when you say that many wage-earners don't pay tax, you mean that their tax credits equals or exceeds their tax payable (I'm no expert on USA taxation, but I believe every earner pays FICA regardless just as every earner in the UK pays NI regardless, just as all pay consumption tax in one form or another).
 
I recall that in these discussions a number like 40% was quoted as the number of earners who don't pay tax in the USA - this to me, as a Brit, sounds somewhat excessive, but since I don't live in the USA I cannot judge. 100 years ago 1% of the population paid tax, now it's 60% (or 100% if you consider all the indirect taxation).


That's what quite a bit of fuss around here is about: Moving the tax burden around.  There is a good deal of talk about people "paying their fair share," but the issue is always who gets to decide what "fair" means.  There are proponents of a flat tax, in which everyone pays the same rate.  There is also what is actually called the fair tax proposal, which would replace income taxes with a national consumption tax.

You're correct about credits being greater than or equal to taxes owed.  And we actually have some policies in place that enable certain wage earners to get a "refund" exceeding what they had withheld from their paychecks. 

Every wage earner pays into FICA- its a separate fund, although our Congress has borrowed heavily from it.  In 2005, George W. Bush said, "
A lot of people in America think there is a trust- that we take your money in payroll taxes and then we hold it for you and then when you retire, we give it back to you.  But that’s not the way it works.  There is no trust fund- just IOUs that I saw firsthand."  So what has happened?  Social security had to cash in $45 billion of the bonds issue by our government, but because we're running an extreme deficit, we've had to borrow that money from China.  Wacko

Interestingly, Democrat Nancy Pelosi said that privatizing Social Security would saddle us with $5 trillion more in debt.  Well, social security was not privatized, but what happened anyway?  Under the Obama administration, we've seen our national debt swell by about six trillion, not five.
Nothing here says the current system is wrong or a replacement system is better (or more wrong). A flat tax is still related to taxation and representation - it's a poll tax by another name and places a disproportionate burden on the poor and low-waged. Consumption tax initially looks fairer but requires an active economy where the rate of spending is high enough to generate enough revenue - this works at a local (state) level because the revenue required is relatively low (hence sales taxes around 20%) - unfortunately consumption (ie retail) only accounts for 1/3rd of all economic trading - essentially consumption tax releases 2/3rd  of the economy from any tax burden; also the effect of a consumption tax is two fold, it increases savings and decreases spending - in households were the prospect of saving is non-existant (ie living from wage-packet to wage-packet), a dispropotionate percentage of earnings is now taxed - what seems fair is not so fair after all.
 
The deficit is living beyond your means and means your expenditure is too high and two your income is too small. This is not an either/or relationship - reducing expenditure will not reduce taxation until the deficit is reduced to zero - and that has to happen long before any reforms in taxation are made.
 
How your government mishandles FICA sounds exactly like how our government mishandles NI.


This is exactly what I mean by looking at taxation through the lens of the proper role of (the US) government. 

While in my discussions with Gamemako and Slart it would appear I am vehemently opposed to welfare (and I am opposed to it), the military would be the first place I would cut spending.  About half of our federal budget goes to the military, and we can't sustain that (I am a quarter mile from Fort Bragg, so I could be hanged for that LOL).  Over half a trillion dollars per year is poured into the military, but if one were to consider all expenditures ancillary to the military (Department of Energy for maintaining nuclear weapons and nuclear reactors on US Navy ships, the $80 billion authorized in a supplemental spending bill for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, etc.), the number is much higher.  Eisenhower warned us of a military-industrial complex, but we didn't listen.

The UK's population is 62.2 million. 
In looking at the UK's budget, you all spend 40 billion pounds on defense ($63.22B).  That's $1016 (642.8 pounds) per head in the UK.

The US has a total of 307 million people.  In 2010, we spent $683.7B (432.6 billion pounds).  We spend $2227 (1409 pounds) per head.  If each person were required to personally foot their own bill, this would mean that I would not get a paycheck for five months just so my family would be "defended."


http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/i/budget2010_chart_1.1.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/ce/Fy2010_spending_by_category.jpg



(Social security shouldn't be included in this chart though, because it is mandatory spending, not discretionary, and is funded by a separate payroll tax.)

So in sum, if the role of our government is to protect our life, liberty, and property, then why are they robbing us so that they can, in Ron Paul's words, be "the policemen of the world?"  Mark this: If President Obama were going to have a balanced budget in 2010 without raising taxes, we would have had to slash our budget by 42%  Shocked


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2012 at 15:55
By the way, you guys need to take this into the economic or political discussion threads.  News of the day can be political but it shouldn't be discussion, you damned tainters of threads!!!WinkTongueLOL
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2012 at 15:59
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2012 at 20:08

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:


This is exactly what I mean by looking at taxation through the lens of the proper role of (the US) government. 

While in my discussions with Gamemako and Slart it would appear I am vehemently opposed to welfare (and I am opposed to it), the military would be the first place I would cut spending.  About half of our federal budget goes to the military, and we can't sustain that (I am a quarter mile from Fort Bragg, so I could be hanged for that LOL).  Over half a trillion dollars per year is poured into the military, but if one were to consider all expenditures ancillary to the military (Department of Energy for maintaining nuclear weapons and nuclear reactors on US Navy ships, the $80 billion authorized in a supplemental spending bill for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, etc.), the number is much higher.  Eisenhower warned us of a military-industrial complex, but we didn't listen.

The UK's population is 62.2 million. 
In looking at the UK's budget, you all spend 40 billion pounds on defense ($63.22B).  That's $1016 (642.8 pounds) per head in the UK.

The US has a total of 307 million people.  In 2010, we spent $683.7B (432.6 billion pounds).  We spend $2227 (1409 pounds) per head.  If each person were required to personally foot their own bill, this would mean that I would not get a paycheck for five months just so my family would be "defended."

That's a big "IF". Only half the total tax revenue comes from income tax and as you pointed out, only 58% of the budget comes from tax revenue in total, so roughly a quarter of that $684B comes from income tax, and since you don't pay income tax on everyone in your household, your share of that does not increase as you add more dependants. Regardless of how much is spent in each department, the percentages are not only percentages of the total government spend, they are the percentages of the tax you paid (if any), so only 18.74% of the tax you paid goes on Defence because clearly you don't go without a paycheck for twenty-six months each year to pay for the total budget expenditure. (I know you are only using it as an illustration of how much is spent on Defence each year, but I think it's necessary to emphasise that each person does not personally foot their own bill just so their families are defended [not sure of the need for italics there, but monkey see, monkey do]).
 
However, I do agree with you, even speaking as someone who has worked in the defence industry since leaving school, no country needs to spend that amount of money on the military - however, the resulting unemployment from defence cuts would need to be resolved, not only from unemployed servicemen but also from the entire defence industry and all the sub-sub-sub-contractors that feed into it and all the spin-off industries that benefit from it.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2012 at 07:57
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
However, I do agree with you, even speaking as someone who has worked in the defence industry since leaving school, no country needs to spend that amount of money on the military - however, the resulting unemployment from defence cuts would need to be resolved, not only from unemployed servicemen but also from the entire defence industry and all the sub-sub-sub-contractors that feed into it and all the spin-off industries that benefit from it.
 
 


There is also a prodigious fear that if bases are closed, the surrounding local economies would crash; this is why my sister-in-law and her husband oppose Ron Paul, although he has actually suggested ending all foreign engagements and using our defense as a defense (securing borders, that sort of thing), and its weird how, to the media, this ideal of non-intervention makes him an "isolationist," even if Paul is a greater proponent of free trade than anyone else running since he wants to end trade embargoes, but that's the media for you.

But this is what I'm saying about how our government can only create artificial demand: Whatever jobs it "creates" is not sustainable.  The US has always thought of itself as that proverbial "city on a hill," but I think it's more and more becoming a cautionary tale regarding how a massive central government that ultimately makes big businesses wealthier (the sub-sub-sub contractors you mentioned, providing sub-prime mortgages that created the housing bubble, the bailouts that allowed businesses to privatize profits while socializing losses, etc.) and creates all this artificial demand is more like a house of cards.

No one wants to cut anything because no one wants to suffer short-term consequences, but if nothing is cut, we shall all suffer for it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2012 at 08:11
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

By the way, you guys need to take this into the economic or political discussion threads.  News of the day can be political but it shouldn't be discussion, you damned tainters of threads!!!WinkTongueLOL
My answer to that would be that I find the economic and political discussion threads aren't conducive to enjoyable discussion. Because they are predominantly centred on American economics and American politics they have a tendency to be overly off-putting to a European such as myself, and in some cases completely incomprehensible to those of us who don't have a complete understanding of them. I have to do a lot of background reading on the American approach to the most basic of topics to even consider joining the discussion, even here, where I had to do some (superficial I admit) research into the American tax system to attempt to make a simple observation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2012 at 09:41
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
However, I do agree with you, even speaking as someone who has worked in the defence industry since leaving school, no country needs to spend that amount of money on the military - however, the resulting unemployment from defence cuts would need to be resolved, not only from unemployed servicemen but also from the entire defence industry and all the sub-sub-sub-contractors that feed into it and all the spin-off industries that benefit from it.
 
 


There is also a prodigious fear that if bases are closed, the surrounding local economies would crash; this is why my sister-in-law and her husband oppose Ron Paul, although he has actually suggested ending all foreign engagements and using our defense as a defense (securing borders, that sort of thing), and its weird how, to the media, this ideal of non-intervention makes him an "isolationist," even if Paul is a greater proponent of free trade than anyone else running since he wants to end trade embargoes, but that's the media for you.

But this is what I'm saying about how our government can only create artificial demand: Whatever jobs it "creates" is not sustainable.  The US has always thought of itself as that proverbial "city on a hill," but I think it's more and more becoming a cautionary tale regarding how a massive central government that ultimately makes big businesses wealthier (the sub-sub-sub contractors you mentioned, providing sub-prime mortgages that created the housing bubble, the bailouts that allowed businesses to privatize profits while socializing losses, etc.) and creates all this artificial demand is more like a house of cards.

No one wants to cut anything because no one wants to suffer short-term consequences, but if nothing is cut, we shall all suffer for it.

I don't think I can accept that as an example of sub-sub-sub contracting as I was using it, while it is an valid example of something, it's not what I mean. The DoD wants a missile to knock out tanks, Raytheon (née Hugues Aircraft Corp) design one and tender it for contract along with several other competing prime contractors such as Thales and Lockheed. Having won the contract the build of that missile is sub contracted by Raytheon to Thales and Lockheed, who sub-sub contract individual sub-assemblies to Goodrich (as AEC) and other such middle tier companies who in turn sub-sub-sub contract modules and other small components to a plethora of companies all over the country (ref: List of USA defence contractors). No one here is getting wealthy from this and the demand for those modules and other small components manufactured by those sub-sub-sub contractors is far from artificial. What happens is that rather than create a wealth of employment solely in Massachusetts, the employment is distributed across several companies across the country. This is still a house of cards as you describe it, albeit a different one more like a domino effect, where the cancellation of one Defence contract can have a knock-on effect across the whole manufacturing base of an economy.
 
While I have no wish to defend Defence spending, I do recognise that in both the USA and much of Europe it is essentially the only manufacturing industry we have left, producing high-value low-volume goods that do not compete with the open-market. The trade embargoes that the defence industries operate under are the most restrictive ever imposed (for example ITAR), removing these restrictions won't necessarily open up the markets or reduce costs as they are related as much to security as they are economics. Similarly cutting Defence expenditure will not result in a diversification in manufacturing for any of the contractors involved in the Defence industry, what diversification they ever had was lost or sold-off years ago when it became uncompetitive.
 
Any plan that aims to cut Defence budget must understand fully the implications and have a viable plan to deal with the inevitable consequences - assuming that "something" will fill the gap is not enough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2012 at 15:32
Dean, I'm curious: What are the major controversial issues in the UK (if you chaps even have any)? 

Illegal immigration from France?  Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2012 at 16:06
Controversial? I wouldn't say we don't have any, or are apathetic in general, but we generally don't make a huge deal out of them (ie any furor is short lived).
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2012 at 17:11
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Controversial? I wouldn't say we don't have any, or are apathetic in general, but we generally don't make a huge deal out of them (ie any furor is short lived).
 
 
 


Well I guess I won't be emigrating to the UK!  LOL Embarrassed

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2012 at 17:12
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2012 at 10:06
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2012 at 11:30
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Shock Report: Afghan War Not Going Exactly as Reported

So are we supposed to believe the shock report?  Yeah the last bad news I've heard is that the Afghan soldiers who we're training have turned on our guys while on training missions.  Steve Hackett put it best "Time to get out while you can."
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2012 at 12:09
^Even if it were a paradise over there I would be supporting withdraw so it ultimately matters little for my position. But yes I may by chance believe this muckracking journalism

Big OWS supporters to attend lavish fundraiser for Obama.

Pay lip service to a populist movement for change...

raise money for the oligarchical status quo.

Makes sense.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2012 at 18:55
I was making a joke about a report not going as reported. Wink

But I'm in agreement with you.  We really aren't serving any useful purpose over there as a military force.  Like we're the invaders/occupiers that aren't going to be run off this time.

Not exactly news of the day but I don't know where the hell else to stick it.  I was wrapping up a field verification of an office warehouse space near the Atlanta airport.  The building is parallel to one of the flight paths so lots of planes going over really close as I worked.  But the best thing, on the way home a big full moon right in front of me driving home on I-285. Big smile


Edited by Slartibartfast - February 07 2012 at 19:29
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2012 at 14:23
^I thought I was playing along with your jovial tone.

Mathematician says we're either alone or aliens are purposely ignoring us.

Articles suck. I just requested his actual paper. I tend to disagree though.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2012 at 18:25
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

^I thought I was playing along with your jovial tone.

Mathematician says we're either alone or aliens are purposely ignoring us.

Articles suck. I just requested his actual paper. I tend to disagree though.
I wouldn't bother, unless it's so bad it's funny. 
 
Even at the relatively sedate pace of 1 percent of light-speed, the aliens would arrive at their nearest neighbor star in about 500 years - Oh my, 1% of light-speed is 6.7 million miles per hour - the fastest spacecraft we've ever made is 50 times slower than that (and that was 200 times faster than a riffle bullet). Making a spacecraft go 50 times faster than the fastest vehicle we know is like trying to make a bicycle go 1,000 mph.

“I’m sure they’d be able to detect if this planet had life on it. Just the CFCs (chlorofluorocarbons) in our atmosphere would give us away,” he said. - but only if their detectors can see faster than light, the Earth the average Milkyway dwelling civilisation can detect at light-speed would be 1000s of years in our past.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2012 at 22:17
I know. I noticed your last complaint reading it which particularly bothered me. He also assumes essentially a human-based model of alien life which strikes me as preposterous. In any case, it's really not fair to judge an argument based on a few quotes a reporter put together. Also, the probabilistic models have an intrinsic interest. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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