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Gamemako
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 31 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1184 |
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You were clearly repeating a misleading statement because you love reinforcing your beliefs with half-truths.
Republicans are 1/4. I only mentioned LBJ because the Great Society was his damn baby, and you can see the rather large downward trend through the years leading up to Nixon's presidency. And hell, I didn't even say that was the case, I said that it could be argued (and I'm sure people have done so). Interpreting historical trends is not exactly a precise science.
It would be nice if you didn't accuse others of being lazy for not searching high and low for your opinion. |
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Hail Eris!
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32552 |
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How brave of you, hedging your remarks like that. "It could be argued that your sister is a so and so, but notice that I'm not actually saying it, I'm just saying she could be! I'm sure other people have made the case that your sister was a so and so, but not me!" Either make an argument with data or don't engage please. It's cute that you support Democrats as one would support a football team (how appropriate, since the Super Bowl is tomorrow). To folks like you and Slart, Democrats are nothing but saints who just want to help those who never got a chance. As long as there is a D beside your name, you are a god and can do no wrong. But if there is an R before your name, you are an abomination to this world. That's not how the real world works, and as long as people act like it is, we're screwed. "I'll have them n****rs voting Democratic for two hundred years." There's LBJ's compassion, by the way.
It's in the political discussion thread, where it belongs (and this discussion probably belongs). Not hard to find.
And you could stop accusing others of being deceitful or stubborn for at most failing to add the qualifier "federal" before the noun "taxes" in pointing out that some people don't pay federal taxes even though the context was clear enough. Edited by Epignosis - February 04 2012 at 16:43 |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32552 |
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This is exactly what I mean by looking at taxation through the lens of the proper role of (the US) government. While in my discussions with Gamemako and Slart it would appear I am vehemently opposed to welfare (and I am opposed to it), the military would be the first place I would cut spending. About half of our federal budget goes to the military, and we can't sustain that (I am a quarter mile from Fort Bragg, so I could be hanged for that ). Over half a trillion dollars per year is poured into the military, but if one were to consider all expenditures ancillary to the military (Department of Energy for maintaining nuclear weapons and nuclear reactors on US Navy ships, the $80 billion authorized in a supplemental spending bill for wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, etc.), the number is much higher. Eisenhower warned us of a military-industrial complex, but we didn't listen. The UK's population is 62.2 million. In looking at the UK's budget, you all spend 40 billion pounds on defense ($63.22B). That's $1016 (642.8 pounds) per head in the UK. The US has a total of 307 million people. In 2010, we spent $683.7B (432.6 billion pounds). We spend $2227 (1409 pounds) per head. If each person were required to personally foot their own bill, this would mean that I would not get a paycheck for five months just so my family would be "defended." (Social security shouldn't be included in this chart though, because it is mandatory spending, not discretionary, and is funded by a separate payroll tax.) So in sum, if the role of our government is to protect our life, liberty, and property, then why are they robbing us so that they can, in Ron Paul's words, be "the policemen of the world?" Mark this: If President Obama were going to have a balanced budget in 2010 without raising taxes, we would have had to slash our budget by 42% |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
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By the way, you guys need to take this into the economic or political discussion threads. News of the day can be political but it shouldn't be discussion, you damned tainters of threads!!!
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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That's a big "IF". Only half the total tax revenue comes from income tax and as you pointed out, only 58% of the budget comes from tax revenue in total, so roughly a quarter of that $684B comes from income tax, and since you don't pay income tax on everyone in your household, your share of that does not increase as you add more dependants. Regardless of how much is spent in each department, the percentages are not only percentages of the total government spend, they are the percentages of the tax you paid (if any), so only 18.74% of the tax you paid goes on Defence because clearly you don't go without a paycheck for twenty-six months each year to pay for the total budget expenditure. (I know you are only using it as an illustration of how much is spent on Defence each year, but I think it's necessary to emphasise that each person does not personally foot their own bill just so their families are defended [not sure of the need for italics there, but monkey see, monkey do]).
However, I do agree with you, even speaking as someone who has worked in the defence industry since leaving school, no country needs to spend that amount of money on the military - however, the resulting unemployment from defence cuts would need to be resolved, not only from unemployed servicemen but also from the entire defence industry and all the sub-sub-sub-contractors that feed into it and all the spin-off industries that benefit from it.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32552 |
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There is also a prodigious fear that if bases are closed, the surrounding local economies would crash; this is why my sister-in-law and her husband oppose Ron Paul, although he has actually suggested ending all foreign engagements and using our defense as a defense (securing borders, that sort of thing), and its weird how, to the media, this ideal of non-intervention makes him an "isolationist," even if Paul is a greater proponent of free trade than anyone else running since he wants to end trade embargoes, but that's the media for you. But this is what I'm saying about how our government can only create artificial demand: Whatever jobs it "creates" is not sustainable. The US has always thought of itself as that proverbial "city on a hill," but I think it's more and more becoming a cautionary tale regarding how a massive central government that ultimately makes big businesses wealthier (the sub-sub-sub contractors you mentioned, providing sub-prime mortgages that created the housing bubble, the bailouts that allowed businesses to privatize profits while socializing losses, etc.) and creates all this artificial demand is more like a house of cards. No one wants to cut anything because no one wants to suffer short-term consequences, but if nothing is cut, we shall all suffer for it. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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My answer to that would be that I find the economic and political discussion threads aren't conducive to enjoyable discussion. Because they are predominantly centred on American economics and American politics they have a tendency to be overly off-putting to a European such as myself, and in some cases completely incomprehensible to those of us who don't have a complete understanding of them. I have to do a lot of background reading on the American approach to the most basic of topics to even consider joining the discussion, even here, where I had to do some (superficial I admit) research into the American tax system to attempt to make a simple observation.
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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I don't think I can accept that as an example of sub-sub-sub contracting as I was using it, while it is an valid example of something, it's not what I mean. The DoD wants a missile to knock out tanks, Raytheon (née Hugues Aircraft Corp) design one and tender it for contract along with several other competing prime contractors such as Thales and Lockheed. Having won the contract the build of that missile is sub contracted by Raytheon to Thales and Lockheed, who sub-sub contract individual sub-assemblies to Goodrich (as AEC) and other such middle tier companies who in turn sub-sub-sub contract modules and other small components to a plethora of companies all over the country (ref: List of USA defence contractors). No one here is getting wealthy from this and the demand for those modules and other small components manufactured by those sub-sub-sub contractors is far from artificial. What happens is that rather than create a wealth of employment solely in Massachusetts, the employment is distributed across several companies across the country. This is still a house of cards as you describe it, albeit a different one more like a domino effect, where the cancellation of one Defence contract can have a knock-on effect across the whole manufacturing base of an economy.
While I have no wish to defend Defence spending, I do recognise that in both the USA and much of Europe it is essentially the only manufacturing industry we have left, producing high-value low-volume goods that do not compete with the open-market. The trade embargoes that the defence industries operate under are the most restrictive ever imposed (for example ITAR), removing these restrictions won't necessarily open up the markets or reduce costs as they are related as much to security as they are economics. Similarly cutting Defence expenditure will not result in a diversification in manufacturing for any of the contractors involved in the Defence industry, what diversification they ever had was lost or sold-off years ago when it became uncompetitive.
Any plan that aims to cut Defence budget must understand fully the implications and have a viable plan to deal with the inevitable consequences - assuming that "something" will fill the gap is not enough.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32552 |
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Dean, I'm curious: What are the major controversial issues in the UK (if you chaps even have any)?
Illegal immigration from France? |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Controversial? I wouldn't say we don't have any, or are apathetic in general, but we generally don't make a huge deal out of them (ie any furor is short lived).
Immigration? Try this: Immigrants 'must add to quality of life in Britain'
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32552 |
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Well I guess I won't be emigrating to the UK! |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
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Shock Report: Afghan War Not Going Exactly as Reported
This is kinda cool and I hadn't heard about it. Event Horizon Telescope to take picture of black hole. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
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^Even if it were a paradise over there I would be supporting withdraw so it ultimately matters little for my position. But yes I may by chance believe this muckracking journalism
Big OWS supporters to attend lavish fundraiser for Obama. Pay lip service to a populist movement for change... raise money for the oligarchical status quo. Makes sense. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
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I was making a joke about a report not going as reported.
But I'm in agreement with you. We really aren't serving any useful purpose over there as a military force. Like we're the invaders/occupiers that aren't going to be run off this time. Not exactly news of the day but I don't know where the hell else to stick it. I was wrapping up a field verification of an office warehouse space near the Atlanta airport. The building is parallel to one of the flight paths so lots of planes going over really close as I worked. But the best thing, on the way home a big full moon right in front of me driving home on I-285. Edited by Slartibartfast - February 07 2012 at 19:29 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
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^I thought I was playing along with your jovial tone.
Mathematician says we're either alone or aliens are purposely ignoring us. Articles suck. I just requested his actual paper. I tend to disagree though. |
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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I wouldn't bother, unless it's so bad it's funny.
“I’m sure they’d be able to detect if this planet had life on it. Just the CFCs (chlorofluorocarbons) in our atmosphere would give us away,” he said. - but only if their detectors can see faster than light, the Earth the average Milkyway dwelling civilisation can detect at light-speed would be 1000s of years in our past. |
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
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I know. I noticed your last complaint reading it which particularly bothered me. He also assumes essentially a human-based model of alien life which strikes me as preposterous. In any case, it's really not fair to judge an argument based on a few quotes a reporter put together. Also, the probabilistic models have an intrinsic interest.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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