Abortion: Legal or Illegal

The T wrote: You sir, are an idiot... You're so full of prejudices... I don't want to assume what "kind of woman" you associate with. But knowing you, I'll venture a prejudice: the ones who hate people.

Well then, I'll tell them you said that.

Apparently Gamemako only associates with women who view pregnancy like influenza and the only ones who would not share that view would be delusional Christians blinded by their faith rather than experiencing any sort of real emotional reaction.

I guess he's in the mood to troll today since he cannot actually be serious.

Should be legal. If somebody wants to do it, for whatever reason, it's their choice and nobody's business but their own. It's the woman that holds the child, goddammit. It's her choice, if anyones.

The T wrote: JJLehto wrote: So I guess it'd be terribly inappropriate (for many reasons) to crack a Hispanic joke at Teo right now? Yes, specially coming from you!

The T wrote: JJLehto wrote: So I guess it'd be terribly inappropriate (for many reasons) to crack a Hispanic joke at Teo right now? Yes, specially coming from you!

Hey now! 100% European blood inside me. Directly from Barcelona (and other places). Even born blond haired and blue eyed!

My wife thoroughly enjoyed being pregnant with our son. It went smoothly. Even the sick bits were enjoyable

Never seen so many experts on what a woman feels.

Gamemako wrote: *Sigh* 1) Find me a woman who enjoyed being pregnant. Good luck. You'll need it. And while you're at it, ask about all the sh*t they have to go through so you can play catch with "your" kids. 2) So, I guess I learned today that the notion that a woman should be sovereign over her body justifies stabbing random infants with railroad spikes. Any more such wisdom to provide, Robert? 3) So, Negoba, you think men should be punished just as much as women, then? Scorched-Earth, kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out, is it? No way we could possibly be concerned with mitigating the misery instead of punishing the wicked. Achieve equality by making everyone equally handicapped. It's how communist Russia did it, and they turned out well, right?

1. My adopted brother-in-law was from a woman who just liked being pregnant.  She would get pregnant and then give up the baby.

2. What?

3. What?

Gamemako wrote: I'm not the one running around calling people idiots and saying that everyone I know is a spiteful wench.

Gamemako wrote: Stop being a douche.

Ah yes, your style of insult is so much classier. 

Equality 7-2521 wrote: I'm exaggerating.

All well and good, would that people didn't insult me on the basis of those exaggerations.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: You're saying that the women who enjoy pregnancy are exceedingly rare.

In my experience, most women do not (again, I have found no women that actually do). I did find some research that suggested that "quite a few" women were happy to have a child, but disliked being pregnant (textbook reference to study that does not have actual data). I have had trouble accessing the actual study it because it's... government-funded, public-domain research.

If anyone wants to try his hand at it, article title is "The Relationship of Military Imposed Marital Separations on Maternal Acceptance of Pregnancy". Should be 503 total subjects, and they'll probably break down reported attitudes. Could be interesting to see how women in a highly-conservative, highly-religious demographic feel. Still need more data from other demographics, though. Not quite as bad as our individual selection bias, but still not good.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: You said to Teo's evidence that the women he knows being Christian accounts for the difference, suggesting that something about the religion causes women to feel connected to the fetus.

No, I suggested that some differences in demographic may account for differences in attitude (hence, Teo's response about race -- or so I assumed). I used religion because it is a choice (unlike, say, race), and I misremembered that Teo was Christian.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: People are calling you an idiot because you're trying to talk in absolutes.

In absolutes presented only by putting words in my mouth. Hell, the only time I've said anything without a qualifier was "1) Find me a woman who enjoyed being pregnant. Good luck. You'll need it.".

Equality 7-2521 wrote: Also, you do ridiculous things like say " 'your' kids" as if a man should feel some associated guilt or something. Actually, the use of such quotation kind of suggest an inequality of the sexes due to carry a child in favor of the woman.

Or a mockery of the notion of possession in the context of Rob's every-cell-has-full-human-rights view.

//EDIT: No, I don't actually expect you to catch that.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: "I hated being pregnant so much until it was over. It's kind of like going to the gym. You hate it while you're there and experiencing the pain, but you're so happy about the experience looking back."

You know, I first read that as confirming my viewpoint, but to review it as neutrally as possible, I'm not sure I can say either way without asking clarification. She clearly didn't like carrying the child, but in retrospect liked the... experience? In particular, it reminds me of Aronson's classic experiment on hazing that found that people really liked things that they had to suffer to get. That's one of the reasons it doesn't at all surprise me to hear when women are not enjoying pregnancy: suffer through it, and you'll be more likely to care diligently for the offspring.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: "I miss being pregnant. It's nice to have my child all to myself."

Got me there. Kinda glad I've never met that particular woman, though.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: "I'm jealous of XXXX because she got carry her child. (woman adopted her child and lamented the pregnancy aspect more than the actual lack of biological link)"

That would be someone speaking out of ignorance of the experience.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: We can trade anecdotal evidence all day. Or we could just go with what I said from the beginning: Different women have different opinions of the experience. Some of them will view it as a hassle and some of them view it as an irreplaceable bond that the woman shares with the baby.

Some is not very specific. You could mean 50%, in which case either viewpoint is "normal", or 5%, in which case it is rather rare.

Slartibartfast wrote: Epignosis wrote: 1. My adopted brother-in-law was from a woman who just liked being pregnant.  She would get pregnant and then give up the baby. 1. Weird and sad and someone who is in need of psychiatric help.  Sounds kind of like Munchhausen's syndrome.

One has to wonder.

Epignosis wrote: 2. What?

You claimed that arguments in favor of abortion can be used to argue for infanticide. I have provided an example of how completely f**king preposterous that is.

Epignosis wrote: 3. What?

Negoba claimed that the idea that women shouldn't suffer disproportionately was hedonism. He further suggested that reducing the discomfort for women would only serve to encourage casual sex and remove responsibility. The only alternative, then, is that all suffer equally. Well, or that women suffer disproportionately, but he also seemed to discount that in a previous post. Therefore, the only conclusion that can be made is that he wants the lives of men to suck equally for nine months. I further noted that this sort of "equality" is terribly reminiscent of communism.

Epignosis wrote: Ah yes, your style of insult is so much classier.

I'm sorry, at the time, I thought you were deliberately spewing absurd straw men.

//EDIT: Should try to be civil...


Edited by Gamemako - January 31 2012 at 16:09