Forum Home Forum Home > Topics not related to music > General discussions
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Abortion: Legal or Illegal
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedAbortion: Legal or Illegal

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2021222324 41>
Author
Message
Gamemako View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 31 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1184
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2012 at 20:27
Originally posted by Dudemanguy Dudemanguy wrote:

Nitpicking here, but life begins before conception. Sperm and eggs are both alive, so this argument (I know that you aren't using it, but I'm just talking about people in general) doesn't really make any sense. Nonetheless, I am perfectly happy with leaving the state out of it.


Traditionally, life requires the ability to reproduce, which sperm and egg do not have. Hence, gametes are not alive in the traditional sense of the word. Similarly, viruses are not alive as they require a host to reproduce.

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

At conception, a unique, living, human organism begins.


And then the majority of them are spontaneously aborted.

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

I living newborn has a LOT of neural development to become anything remotely like what we call human. They are also completely and totally dependent on others for survival.


Which is pretty damn important. Most people don't have a problem pulling the plug on a brain-dead body.
Hail Eris!
Back to Top
Negoba View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5210
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2012 at 21:11
Gamemako, I'm not sure the points you're making. It's seems like you're supporting infanticide in the true sense of the word in your last statement.
 
It sounds like you've decided your position and you're making up excuses to defend it.

Gametes are not alive? GMAFB.

Ideally, there would be very few cases where this even was an issue and careful consideration could happen between a woman, her loved ones, and those involved medically. But that's not even vaguely how it works.

Future generations will look at this era and this issue as we look at slavery.



Edited by Negoba - January 27 2012 at 21:32
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
Back to Top
Epignosis View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32552
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2012 at 21:23
Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:

Originally posted by Dudemanguy Dudemanguy wrote:

Nitpicking here, but life begins before conception. Sperm and eggs are both alive, so this argument (I know that you aren't using it, but I'm just talking about people in general) doesn't really make any sense. Nonetheless, I am perfectly happy with leaving the state out of it.


Traditionally, life requires the ability to reproduce, which sperm and egg do not have. Hence, gametes are not alive in the traditional sense of the word. Similarly, viruses are not alive as they require a host to reproduce.


My mother-in-law has no uterus.  Is she not alive?  Stern Smile
Back to Top
Sheavy View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 28 2010
Location: Alabama
Status: Offline
Points: 2866
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2012 at 23:00

"Abortion should not only be safe and legal, it should be rare." - Bill Clinton.

I would like abortion to be illegal but I don't see that happening, so it should be as rare as possible.

Back to Top
stonebeard View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2012 at 23:33
I am reasonably satisfied with the status quo. If it changes then I'll care to discuss it.
Back to Top
Gamemako View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 31 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1184
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2012 at 23:53
Quote
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Gametes are not alive? GMAFB.
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

My mother-in-law has no uterus.  Is she not alive?  Stern Smile


I'm talking about whether something can be categorized as life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life#Definitions

Whether an individual is alive or dead is even more difficult to classify. In humans, we typically use brain death, but that is a difficult judgment to make.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death#Problems_of_definition

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

It sounds like you've decided your position and you're making up excuses to defend it.


Refer to above. You don't seem to understand what I'm talking about.

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Gamemako, I'm not sure the points you're making. It's seems like you're supporting infanticide in the true sense of the word in your last statement.


42nd trimester abortions please. LOL

Anyway, I'm saying that what constitutes a living or dead being is not well-defined. We as a society are (generally) willing to allow he who is brain-dead to rot away even if the body still remains and can continue to function. Do we accept brain functioning as the key to what constitutes a person? Or do we use viability, since we are not willing to sustain life in a non-viable adult?

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Ideally, there would be very few cases where this even was an issue and careful consideration could happen between a woman, her loved ones, and those involved medically. But that's not even vaguely how it works.


If we could decide to stop living, we would have become extinct long ago.

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Future generations will look at this era and this issue as we look at slavery.


No. This debate has no end. The question of what makes a human has been asked for millennia. We have always argued over what to do with even those we see to be permanently and irrevocably dead. To think that we could ever resolve our moral judgment of what makes a life worth sustaining is dubious at best.
Hail Eris!
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2012 at 00:53
Originally posted by Sheavy Sheavy wrote:

"Abortion should not only be safe and legal, it should be rare." - Bill Clinton.

I would like abortion to be illegal but I don't see that happening, so it should be as rare as possible.


Again, I'm a Catholic, I should be against abortion, but I'm not absolutely against, I only accept three cases:

  1. Imminent death of the mother (Therapeutic abortion), the Church accepts this, because even when the phoetus is a life in progress, the mother is a life fully developed.
  2. Rape with pregnancy: No woman should be forced to choose between carrying the product of the worst moment of her life for nine months and then decide if she's going to keep the baby and simply hate him for all her life because of the trauma.
  3. Proved disease of the phoetus that would cause a painful death with no hope of life (Tay-Sachs for example), I don't mean incapacity, I mean imminent death..
I obviously prefer the condom or in the case of rape the morning after pill, but sometimes is necessary, of course in the first or second month.at the most (except therapeutic, in which case it should be allowed in any moment in which the life of the mother is in imminent risk).

In no case abortion should used as a substitute for casual sex without protection, the woman owns her body, but not the body of the baby, if she was careless enough to have sex without protection, she should have the baby.

Iván




Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 28 2012 at 11:14
            
Back to Top
CCVP View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2012 at 01:27
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Sheavy Sheavy wrote:

"Abortion should not only be safe and legal, it should be rare." - Bill Clinton.

I would like abortion to be illegal but I don't see that happening, so it should be as rare as possible.


Again, I'm a Catholic, I should be against abortion, but I'm not absolutely against, I only accept three cases:

  1. Imminent death of the mother (Therapeutic abortion), the Church accepts this, because even when the phoetus is a life in progress, the mother is a life fully developed.
  2. Rape with pregnancy: No woman should be forced to choose between carrying the product of the worst moment of her life for nine month and then decide iof she's going to keep the baby or simply hate him for all her life because of the trauma.
  3. Proved disease of the phoetus that would cause a painful death with no hope of life (Tay-Sachs for example), I don't mean incapacity, I mean imminent death..
I obviously prefer the condom or in the case of rape the morning after pill, but sometimes is necessary, of course in the first or second month.at the most (except therapeutic, in which case it should be allowed in any moment in which the life of the mother is in imminent risk).

In no case abortion should used as a substitute for casual sex without protection, the woman owns her body, but not the body of the baby, if she was careless enough to have sex without protection, she should have the baby.

Iván


I agree completelly with you Iván.
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2012 at 03:01
 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


In no case abortion should used as a substitute for casual sex without protection, the woman owns her body, but not the body of the baby, if she was careless enough to have sex without protection, she should have the baby.


No responsibility for the man eh?  Yeah there is a epidemic of loose women going around having sex willy nilly just so they can conceive children only to take sheer pleasure in killing them.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Back to Top
Dudemanguy View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: November 14 2011
Location: In the closet
Status: Offline
Points: 89
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2012 at 10:24

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

I living newborn has a LOT of neural development to become anything remotely like what we call human. They are also completely and totally dependent on others for survival. And yet we don't think it's ok to euthanise babies who aren't wanted (even if the reasoning is very sound.)

Ah, but the answer to this is simple. Newborns don't violate anyone's right to bodily autonomy. A fetus undoubtedly violates this right so any woman should be free to remove it. 

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

I, personally, don't understand why people would defend the legalization of abortion when there are such a huge number of contraceptives.
 

And abortion is merely another form of contraceptive. Instead of prevention, you kill the fetus later. Yes, technically, by the definition of the word, abortion isn't a kind of contraceptive, but it's not a whole lot different and the ends are exactly the same. So in my mind, there's really no need to make that distinction between the two. 

Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:


Traditionally, life requires the ability to reproduce, which sperm and egg do not have. Hence, gametes are not alive in the traditional sense of the word. Similarly, viruses are not alive as they require a host to reproduce.
 

Gametes are a type of cell which means they are indeed alive. There's really no disputing this. They clone themselves via meiosis if I remember correctly.


I mean not allowing abortion is pretty much just punishing woman for having sex which I find inherently sexist. Just read the chart on this blog and you'll see what I mean: http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2011/06/27/do-they-really-believe-abortion-is-murder/ 



Edited by Dudemanguy - January 28 2012 at 10:27
Back to Top
Gamemako View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 31 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1184
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2012 at 10:49
Originally posted by Dudemanguy Dudemanguy wrote:

Gametes are a type of cell which means they are indeed alive. There's really no disputing this. They clone themselves via meiosis if I remember correctly.


Gametes are what are produced by meiosis. In humans, these are the egg and sperm. They are not capable of individual reproduction. They cannot clone themselves (i.e. reproduce by mitosis). They can only grow by meeting with the other half. Individually, you cannot call either life. Together, they produce life. Similarly, glucose and guanine and tryptophan are all pieces of the puzzle of life, you certainly would not argue that they are individually alive. Yet, they are all (gametes, sugar, amino acids, and nucleobases) a part of human life, essential to the life cycle of a living organism. It's always shades of gray.
Hail Eris!
Back to Top
Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2012 at 11:09
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


In no case abortion should used as a substitute for casual sex without protection, the woman owns her body, but not the body of the baby, if she was careless enough to have sex without protection, she should have the baby.


No responsibility for the man eh?  Yeah there is a epidemic of loose women going around having sex willy nilly just so they can conceive children only to take sheer pleasure in killing them.

By the contrary Starti, attack us where it hurts more (In the pocket).

If a MANDATORY DNA test proves it's a man's child, we should be forced to pay 50% of the expenses and of course education.

Instead of protecting abortion, make stronger laws to make men and women responsible of their acts...If a man has to pay 1/3 of his incomes in one baby he never wanted, he wouldn't be stupid enough to have another one, I'm sure he would be the first to carry a package of condoms in the pocket.

Iván.


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 28 2012 at 11:13
            
Back to Top
lazland View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13775
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2012 at 11:25
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


In no case abortion should used as a substitute for casual sex without protection, the woman owns her body, but not the body of the baby, if she was careless enough to have sex without protection, she should have the baby.


No responsibility for the man eh?  Yeah there is a epidemic of loose women going around having sex willy nilly just so they can conceive children only to take sheer pleasure in killing them.

By the contrary Starti, attack us where it hurts more (In the pocket).

If a MANDATORY DNA test proves it's a man's child, we should be forced to pay 50% of the expenses and of course education.

Instead of protecting abortion, make stronger laws to make men and women responsible of their acts...If a man has to pay 1/3 of his incomes in one baby he never wanted, he wouldn't be stupid enough to have another one, I'm sure he would be the first to carry a package of condoms in the pocket.

Iván.

As a lawyer, you must surely be aware that the easiest laws to break, and those most frequently broke, are silly ones. They tried something similar here with the Child Support Agency, one of the biggest governmental disasters of our time in the UK, which is saying something.
Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org

Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2012 at 12:27
Dudemanguy, I tend to favor legalization of abortion, but calling it "another form of contraceptive"?! Please...
Back to Top
Dudemanguy View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: November 14 2011
Location: In the closet
Status: Offline
Points: 89
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2012 at 13:42

Originally posted by Gamemako Gamemako wrote:


Gametes are what are produced by meiosis. In humans, these are the egg and sperm. They are not capable of individual reproduction. They cannot clone themselves (i.e. reproduce by mitosis). They can only grow by meeting with the other half. Individually, you cannot call either life. Together, they produce life. Similarly, glucose and guanine and tryptophan are all pieces of the puzzle of life, you certainly would not argue that they are individually alive. Yet, they are all (gametes, sugar, amino acids, and nucleobases) a part of human life, essential to the life cycle of a living organism. It's always shades of gray.



"Life (cf. biota) is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes (i.e., living organisms) from those that do not,[1][2] either because such functions have ceased (death), or else because they lack such functions and are classified as inanimate." Taken from the almighty wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life

What you described was life. Gametes have long been scientifically proven to be life. They have a "signaling and self-sustaining process." Gametes are merely a kind of human cell (and all cells are considered life) that is specifically responsible for reproduction. Since it has human DNA, everytime a baby is born, more gametes come into existence which de facto, reproduction. Virtually every scientist accepts that gametes are a form of life.

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Dudemanguy, I tend to favor legalization of abortion, but calling it "another form of contraceptive"?! Please...  

Technically, it's not one, but both things achieve the same goal: no baby. I don't understand why people tend to make such a distinction between the two. Is it really so different if you use a condom instead of just terminating the fetus a few weeks later? 

Back to Top
CCVP View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2012 at 13:56
Originally posted by Dudemanguy Dudemanguy wrote:

Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

I, personally, don't understand why people would defend the legalization of abortion when there are such a huge number of contraceptives.

 

And abortion is merely another form of contraceptive. Instead of prevention, you kill the fetus later. Yes, technically, by the definition of the word, abortion isn't a kind of contraceptive, but it's not a whole lot different and the ends are exactly the same. So in my mind, there's really no need to make that distinction between the two.



They are quite different. With conmtraception prevent human life from forming; wile the abortion destroys human life in formation. Moreover, they do not have the same result: the former does not have impact on the female body (for the most part), wile the latter aggressively attacks the female body in so many ways that I, for one, don't understand why women allow their bodies to undergo such a procedure.

You see, a rather blunt mean of comparison would be a car accident: using a contraceptive would be like following the security measures when the accident happened wile the abortion would be the other option; imagineing that the person survived said accident, it is plainly obvious that, though in both options the person has survived, the consequeces would be much graver in the second scenario and could potentially kill said person. Same happens with abortion: not only it kills the fetus, but it represents a real risk to the mother's life as a whole and her body health in general.

Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2012 at 14:55
I think you are complicating things a bit too much. Yes, technically abortion might be another contraceptive method, but I would be quite scared of trivializing it so much as to be seen in the same light as the pill or other alternatives. It would be morally dangerous, and I'm quite the one against any type of moral judgments in most cases (people here know that). But to start treating abortion just like "another option open" seems to me wrong. I encourage people to always use some form of contraceptive, but I won't say "hey, just do it, you can abort if anything". Is it really that easy? Yes, let it be legal, get the state out of the choice, but don't start painting it as just some alternative to other methods. Don't make it so mundane. Don't promote it. One thing is to be "pro-choice" another one to be "pro-abortion", and calling it "just another contraceptive method" seems to make it something we should promote.

By the way that stupid "clear form" button below should be eliminated. It causes big problems when you press it by mistake
Back to Top
Sheavy View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: March 28 2010
Location: Alabama
Status: Offline
Points: 2866
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2012 at 15:25
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Sheavy Sheavy wrote:

"Abortion should not only be safe and legal, it should be rare." - Bill Clinton.

I would like abortion to be illegal but I don't see that happening, so it should be as rare as possible.


Again, I'm a Catholic, I should be against abortion, but I'm not absolutely against, I only accept three cases:

  1. Imminent death of the mother (Therapeutic abortion), the Church accepts this, because even when the phoetus is a life in progress, the mother is a life fully developed.
  2. Rape with pregnancy: No woman should be forced to choose between carrying the product of the worst moment of her life for nine month and then decide iof she's going to keep the baby or simply hate him for all her life because of the trauma.
  3. Proved disease of the phoetus that would cause a painful death with no hope of life (Tay-Sachs for example), I don't mean incapacity, I mean imminent death..
I obviously prefer the condom or in the case of rape the morning after pill, but sometimes is necessary, of course in the first or second month.at the most (except therapeutic, in which case it should be allowed in any moment in which the life of the mother is in imminent risk).

In no case abortion should used as a substitute for casual sex without protection, the woman owns her body, but not the body of the baby, if she was careless enough to have sex without protection, she should have the baby.

Iván


I agree completelly with you Iván.
 
I second you.
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2012 at 15:54
The man bears no responsibility whatsoever.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

Back to Top
The T View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 28 2012 at 16:03
???
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 2021222324 41>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.201 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.