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Manuel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 09 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 13351
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Posted: January 02 2012 at 14:23 |
OT Räihälä wrote:
(Happy New Year to everybody!)
I guess a lot of prog fans are more fans of progressivity, i.e. not of prog as a music style, if we mean with prog all rock-related music that goes beyond the most common features of rock/pop music. That progressivity was more often found in the old prog rock of the late 60's / early to mid 70's, when artistic thinking in rock was not ridiculed by the music press, than nowadays when 9/10 bands sound unimaginative. Nowadays I think there are even more prog bands than there used to be 40 years ago, but very few of them are progressive in their thinking - and I think that is the thing that makes you lose your interest.
I agree with you that there's so much more to find in jazz and classical music. For example the new generation of Nordic jazz musicians (esp. Norway, Sweden and Finland) are nigh on revolutionizing the genre. And contemporary art music has stylistic and musical richness that pop/rock music can only dream of, but very few know any of these works because art music has become too marginal phenomenon; that music is seldom performed live and there are even fewer recordings. Of course there is still a lot to find in old classical music (and I believe the early 20th century music will speak to many prog fans) and I urge everyone who doesn't puke at hearing for example RIO/avant-prog to start listening to the art music of the last century. |
Well said. This is exactly my point and pretty much how I feel. I'm not really into "Prog" as a genre (unless the music is well written and exciting), but of "Progressive music" which is more than just odd meters, long pieces, lots of solos, changes in tempo, etc. I've discovered many great musicians in other genres who would put prog musicians in shame by the quality of their play and compositions, and so much great music out there which would be rejected for not being "prog", which has better quality songwriting, arrangements, orchestration, etc. We just needs an open mind while listening, and the reward is fulfilling and satisfying.
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Hercules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Near York UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7024
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Posted: January 02 2012 at 14:00 |
Tony R wrote:
Dean wrote:
octopus-4 wrote:
Hercules wrote:
Originally posted by TODDLER
They say Grendel is just a recycling of Supper's Ready. Apart from one passage near the end which is in 9/8 time and has a very similar bass line, the structure, mood, melodies and subject matter are chalk and cheese. |
Grendel IS a recycling of Supper's ready from a band that was still setting up its sound. Grendel was released as a promo and didn't appear on any official album until B'sides Themselves. This doesn't mean that Marillion are a clone. They took inspiration from Genesis then developed their own style. Grendel is very distant from Misplaced Childhood isn't it? There should be a reason why I've been a fan of Marillion and I've never been a fan of Genesis.
Apart of this comment, prog is so various that I can loose interest in a part of it (currently I don't listen to much neo-prog), but my interest into other subgenres is increasing. |
Grendel was released on the b-side of the 12" version of Market Square Heroes in 1982 (an official EMI release not a Promo), hence it's inclusion on B'sides Themselves in '88. |
I have that 12" single, wonder if it's worth anything?
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It's worth listening to - often!!
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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13627
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Posted: January 02 2012 at 12:48 |
I really shouldn't have such a long break from the site in future. Four days away, and i have to plough through all of this lot
Anyways, I, for one, still find so much to enjoy in this great genre. In no other genre could you hear such a wide and eclectic range of rock music, and I am of the opinion that new music being produced today, at its best, is as good, and in some cases, better than the "classics" of the 1970's.
There has never been a better time to listen to great new music, and i am loving every single second of it.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17511
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Posted: January 02 2012 at 12:14 |
BaldFriede wrote:
I must say I lose interest in prog. It just does not interest me anymore what new albums come out, with the odd exception. Jazz and classical music are much more interesting, in my opinion.. There is so much music to discover which expands my mind more than prog; why, completely exploring the works of Johann Sebastian Bach lone seems to be a task that would take a lifetime but would be much more fulfilling than wasting my time with so-called "new" prog albums which are more or less just an endless repetition of what has already been said.
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I lost interest about 10 to 15 years ago, when the folks "discussing" the term and its terminology, did not know much about music and were not interested in placing this music within the context of all music ... it's way too kissypoo to rockband reviewers and kissers in many magazines ... it's about the star and never the music ... and the way that it was defined is as bizarre and unlike any music that anyone can ever compose, not to mention that if that one computer in Santa Cruz composes using all those ideas, everyone here in this board will say that it is pretentious and not good ... and all the metal'ists will hate it because it doesn't thrash enough and it's not loud enough .... and it never ends.
Worse part? Listening to music and its different elements and suggestions ... is always bypassed. Not cool enough and definitly not "fan" friendly at all ... because that is like suggesting that the fan is not intelligent ... in other words, it's not even about the music anymore!
The whole thing has become a definition of FAN ... and has nothing to do with music ... and at least, music history was put together on appreciation of music and its variety and its differences ... but here, it is almost all like ... it has to sound the same!
And that "same" is the one thing that is craziest for me ... just like some of the reviews here ... not prog enough because it doesn't sound like YES or ELP or ... whatever!
To me, "progressive" and then later "prog", were the first classical music of my time and place on this earth and I love these people dearly for having done it and tried it ... and I still respect Pete Townsend for saying that "Tommy" is a rock opera ... and folks here will still say it's not progressive ... and it is way more progressive in its entirety than more than half the top 100 listed at this site or any other "progressive" site ... where the numbers is about the fame and fortune, not the artist at all ... and maybe that is where the problem lies ... it needs to get off the "album" and placed on the artist ... and these people don't like artists, do not trust them, and think they are more evil than any other religion out there!
The main difference? 100 years ago it wasn't electric ... today it is ... and the age of accoustic is pretty much over ... for the next couple of hundred years I bet!
Oh well ... que sera, sera!
Edited by moshkito - January 02 2012 at 12:31
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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Abstrakt
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 18 2005
Location: Soundgarden
Status: Offline
Points: 18292
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Posted: January 02 2012 at 06:38 |
See what you mean there. I lost interest in prog a few years back, and then i went on into alternative rock, then electronic music and post-punk ad lately it's jazz. But during those periods of listening, i always played some prog album here and there (almost only old ones, though), and the interest slowly came back. Some newer prog bands are amazing, especially in the post-rock area, but other than a few, i'm not very into "modern" prog eiter.
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14110
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Posted: January 02 2012 at 06:31 |
OT Räihälä wrote:
I believe the early 20th century music will speak to many prog fans |
It does
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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OT Räihälä
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 09 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 514
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Posted: January 02 2012 at 06:21 |
BaldFriede wrote:
I must say I lose interest in prog. It just does not interest me anymore what new albums come out, with the odd exception. Jazz and classical music are much more interesting, in my opinion.. There is so much music to discover which expands my mind more than prog; why, completely exploring the works of Johann Sebastian Bach lone seems to be a task that would take a lifetime but would be much more fulfilling than wasting my time with so-called "new" prog albums which are more or less just an endless repetition of what has already been said.
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(Happy New Year to everybody!)
I guess a lot of prog fans are more fans of progressivity, i.e. not of prog as a music style, if we mean with prog all rock-related music that goes beyond the most common features of rock/pop music. That progressivity was more often found in the old prog rock of the late 60's / early to mid 70's, when artistic thinking in rock was not ridiculed by the music press, than nowadays when 9/10 bands sound unimaginative. Nowadays I think there are even more prog bands than there used to be 40 years ago, but very few of them are progressive in their thinking - and I think that is the thing that makes you lose your interest.
I agree with you that there's so much more to find in jazz and classical music. For example the new generation of Nordic jazz musicians (esp. Norway, Sweden and Finland) are nigh on revolutionizing the genre. And contemporary art music has stylistic and musical richness that pop/rock music can only dream of, but very few know any of these works because art music has become too marginal phenomenon; that music is seldom performed live and there are even fewer recordings. Of course there is still a lot to find in old classical music (and I believe the early 20th century music will speak to many prog fans) and I urge everyone who doesn't puke at hearing for example RIO/avant-prog to start listening to the art music of the last century.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: January 02 2012 at 05:08 |
Dean wrote:
octopus-4 wrote:
Hercules wrote:
Originally posted by TODDLER
They say Grendel is just a recycling of Supper's Ready. Apart from one passage near the end which is in 9/8 time and has a very similar bass line, the structure, mood, melodies and subject matter are chalk and cheese. |
Grendel IS a recycling of Supper's ready from a band that was still setting up its sound. Grendel was released as a promo and didn't appear on any official album until B'sides Themselves. This doesn't mean that Marillion are a clone. They took inspiration from Genesis then developed their own style. Grendel is very distant from Misplaced Childhood isn't it? There should be a reason why I've been a fan of Marillion and I've never been a fan of Genesis.
Apart of this comment, prog is so various that I can loose interest in a part of it (currently I don't listen to much neo-prog), but my interest into other subgenres is increasing. |
Grendel was released on the b-side of the 12" version of Market Square Heroes in 1982 (an official EMI release not a Promo), hence it's inclusion on B'sides Themselves in '88. |
I have that 12" single, wonder if it's worth anything?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 02 2012 at 05:05 |
octopus-4 wrote:
Hercules wrote:
Originally posted by TODDLER
They say Grendel is just a recycling of Supper's Ready. Apart from one passage near the end which is in 9/8 time and has a very similar bass line, the structure, mood, melodies and subject matter are chalk and cheese. |
Grendel IS a recycling of Supper's ready from a band that was still setting up its sound. Grendel was released as a promo and didn't appear on any official album until B'sides Themselves. This doesn't mean that Marillion are a clone. They took inspiration from Genesis then developed their own style. Grendel is very distant from Misplaced Childhood isn't it? There should be a reason why I've been a fan of Marillion and I've never been a fan of Genesis.
Apart of this comment, prog is so various that I can loose interest in a part of it (currently I don't listen to much neo-prog), but my interest into other subgenres is increasing. |
Grendel was released on the b-side of the 12" version of Market Square Heroes in 1982 (an official EMI release not a Promo), hence it's inclusion on B'sides Themselves in '88.
Edited by Dean - January 02 2012 at 05:06
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What?
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams
Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14110
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Posted: January 02 2012 at 04:44 |
Hercules wrote:
Originally posted by TODDLER
They say Grendel is just a recycling of Supper's Ready. Apart from one passage near the end which is in 9/8 time and has a very similar bass line, the structure, mood, melodies and subject matter are chalk and cheese. |
Grendel IS a recycling of Supper's ready from a band that was still setting up its sound. Grendel was released as a promo and didn't appear on any official album until B'sides Themselves. This doesn't mean that Marillion are a clone. They took inspiration from Genesis then developed their own style. Grendel is very distant from Misplaced Childhood isn't it? There should be a reason why I've been a fan of Marillion and I've never been a fan of Genesis.
Apart of this comment, prog is so various that I can loose interest in a part of it (currently I don't listen to much neo-prog), but my interest into other subgenres is increasing.
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Hercules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Near York UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7024
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Posted: January 02 2012 at 04:19 |
Originally posted by TODDLER
"I lose interest in neo-prog mainly because I hear the same formulas used over and over."
That's exactly what I DON'T hear. If you listen to Guns n' Roses, Van Halen, Bon Jovi and other "cock rock" bands, or the NWOBHM bands or the Metallica/Motley Crue type metal or the Nirvana/Alice in Chains inspired grunge bands, well yes, they repeat the same basic formula ad infinitum, albeit with some variations. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy some of that stuff, but it can get samey after a while.
I hear people say Marillion simply copied Genesis and recycled their ideas. Utter crap. Genesis never had the angry, embittered edge that Fish's lyrics gave Marillion. They say Grendel is just a recycling of Supper's Ready. Apart from one passage near the end which is in 9/8 time and has a very similar bass line, the structure, mood, melodies and subject matter are chalk and cheese. I could argue the same for IQ's music being as distinct from Genesis as Beethoven was from Vivaldi.
Apart from Starcastle and one or two other bands which deliberately set out to clone another band, prog is about as varied and interesting a genre as any could be. That's why I, for one, will NEVER get bored of it.
Edited by Hercules - January 02 2012 at 04:20
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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
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verslibre
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 17154
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Posted: January 01 2012 at 23:55 |
Kashmir75 wrote:
The best way to avoid boredom is to not listen to just prog. I have tonnes of genres on my Ipod, from classical, to jazz, to forties nostalgia music, to metal, to blues, to ambient electronica, to pop, to prog. If I listen to the same artist for a long time, I will start to get bored, so I switch to something else. And when I come back to it later, it sounds as fresh as when I first heard it.
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Yeah, it's best to mix things up. Prog, hard rock ('70s/'80s), ambient, electronic (of the Tangerine Dream variety, etc.) and soundtracks have made up the bulk of my listening habits since the '80s. I did have to ease up on the symph, and when I "investigated" another sub-subgenre, like prog folk, that hit the spot for a while. I burned out on prog metal roughly a decade ago.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: January 01 2012 at 22:27 |
TODDLER wrote:
I lose interest in neo-prog mainly because I hear the same formulas used over and over. Like doing a film based around a book that was written decades ago...which is fine however how many times can you repeat this sequence before the viewers begin to pull out their hair? Genesis, Yes, ELP, King Crimson, and Jethro Tull were all innovative but the idea of repeating their ideas is the wrong path to take for future innovation. Some prog musicians adapt 25 percent of an innovator's style and the remaining 75 percent is their originality while other's craft all aspects to the innovator's style. This is sometimes a painful experience for skilled players who want to find their own voice.
Sometimes I think the process of this musician who can't bare to NOT play like Tony Banks is pathetic. All musicians need to do is experiment more. If you want to invent a more interesting innovative prog style of composition you have to play Classical music and Jazz daily as a practice and then you might come up with an idea which differs from the typical prog music formulas which are constantly used. Gentle Giant based on counterpoint, Yes, Genesis, and ELP based around Classical music and so musicians tend to keep their spirit alive by concentrating more on what these bands created from Classical and not what they..themselves could create from the style. Prog needs Jazz and Classical on the menu so you should create the music yourself by investigating those styles first and listening to your innovators second.
How do you think Fripp or Banks came up with these unique ideas? It's a stupied concept because musicians today emulate the sound of these characters instead of locating the original influence which was period music or Avant Jazz. This is what has killed prog for me. You can even cop a line from Penderecki's sacred choral works, reverse it, change it's structure around and it becomes a beautiful complex signature line for a prog piece...but no, musicians would rather run to the recordings of Fripp and steal his ideas...and trying different reverse procedures of those ideas ...which it all starts to sound the same. To be influenced by a Classical composer does not mean that your end result will sound like "A Passion Play" or "Selling England By the Pound". Or to say that the essence of the Classical music combined with a prog rock mentality will always sound like the music of the prog innovators is incorrect depending on how creative you are. A structure of notes written by yourself can differ from what people in the past have written. Some ideas for prog songs are un-explainable... however when musicians write the idea they also must come up with a structure of their own for the piece to sound original. If they can't create that on their own..it's because they need to go back and study more and stop the nonsense of playing along with "Fracture" 3 times a day. That will destroy your creative mind and you will find yourself writing things that sound like Fracture most of the time. Do you see how ridiculous this is?
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These points resonate with me a lot but I would suggest that if you are really looking for something progressive in that light, you may be hard pressed to find much of it on PA. The moment a kind of music is classified and identified as a genre, all future additions to the basket necessarily need to have some measure of similarity with the music already classified as such, in this case prog. This also implies that music that sounds like a pale imitation of KC will be more easily accepted in the fold than something which sounds nothing like KC on the surface but channels the same compositional spirit. This is the whole reason why genres go stale and give way to new genres and to that extent, the archives have at least had a more inclusive approach and classified Radiohead and Bjork as prog which one may not purely in comparison to classic prog. So, there must be truly progressive music somewhere but maybe it's not always called prog anymore because those who proclaim to play prog rock probably already have the reference of old prog in front of them and thereby impose constraints and boundaries on themselves. It is no wonder that, like it or not, some of the more daring new prog acts are metal based because metal didn't have a lot to do with prog back then though prog rock artists were only too happy to incorporate elements of metal, apart from other styles of music, in their work. Ditto for avant, which is not so central to the original prog movement.
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AmbianceMan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 30 2009
Location: Dayton, OH
Status: Offline
Points: 113
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Posted: January 01 2012 at 20:54 |
Nah, I just mean I get more jaded and cynical as I get older. It's hard for me to find something I don't think sounds pretentious.
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ProcolWho?
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 06 2007
Location: New york
Status: Offline
Points: 162
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Posted: January 01 2012 at 20:35 |
why? you want a bunch of punks rampaging through your property?
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AmbianceMan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 30 2009
Location: Dayton, OH
Status: Offline
Points: 113
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Posted: January 01 2012 at 20:10 |
I lose interest for a few months per year usually. After Thanksgiving I start exploring new prog like clockwork. I think it's the weather and the somber mood, I dunno. But I must say, like you OP, I start to move more towards jazz and classical each year. I also believe that it's true that there is nothing new under the sun. I hope I don't end up an old man running out of my house yelling at kids "GET OFF OF MY LAWN!"
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prog4evr
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 22 2005
Location: Wuhan, China
Status: Offline
Points: 1455
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Posted: January 01 2012 at 18:38 |
colorofmoney91 wrote:
...once you go prog there is no turning back completely.
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My sentiment exactly. While most new prog does not excite me, the genre still has an aura about it that will never completely fade away...
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KingCrimson250
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 573
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Posted: January 01 2012 at 18:20 |
Tapfret wrote:
Today I went to a football forum to talk about how I didn't like football anymore and how much more into other sports I am. When that bored me I visited a Java forum to moan about how real programmers write in assembly. Then I went to a motorcycle forum to talk about how I just don't enjoy riding anymore and how much better flying or boating or just plain driving an auto is. After that I visited a stand-up comedy forum to complain that nobody is really funny anymore. I followed that by spending some time at a RPG video gaming blog to point out the lack of originality and sterile graphics used in the genre. Being indifferent to that discussion after awhile, I posted some enlightenment at a tree forum and prattled on about the superiority of shrubs and grasses because tree bark is pretty much the same as it was 8,000 years ago.
No, actually I didn't. That would be utterly ridiculous.
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I see your point, but it's not like BaldFriede is some internet kid coming in here just for kicks. She's been a part of this community for an awfully long time and has contributed greatly to this website. This is less of a popping in and saying "Haha ya i used to like ur guyz music 2 when i waz 13" and more of sitting down and saying "I've done this a lot, we've run the race, and I'm just not sure if there's anything left in it for me. Am I crazy?"
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Hercules
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 14 2007
Location: Near York UK
Status: Offline
Points: 7024
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Posted: January 01 2012 at 18:13 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Hercules wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
^ You need a better CD player |
It's a Sugden PDT-4 Masterclass, recently rated one of the three best CD players irrespective of price.
There IS nothing much better, but it's up against possibly the most realistic vinyl player ever made. It's so good, I need a better listening room.
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Make it a padded cell?
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Perhaps I need it after spending nearly £20k on a hi fi to put it in a room which isn't ideal!
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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: January 01 2012 at 17:51 |
zravkapt wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
I went to the Petnhouse Forum and didn't have sex. |
Pet 'n' house Freudian slip, internet style? |
It was a good one though. Apology to all those who won't get it.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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