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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Prog and the state of the music business
    Posted: January 14 2012 at 20:40
Hi, I,m new to the site, but can so relate to the prog lovers need to physically have the music. Just recently obtained the amazing Ammerland by Fuhrs and Frohling and my immediate reaction upon receipt was to copy 5 times and hide the original...seems crazy, but i am so afraid this kind of music will disappear that i have to hoard it.....!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 14 2012 at 10:34
Originally posted by wjohnd wjohnd wrote:

i've pretty much embraced the digital revolution - although I own hundreds of CDs most of the music i buy now is on MP3 or listened to via Spotify.
CDs were a  poor substitute for the joy of a double gate-fold sleeve anyway and I don't really miss them.
LPs were great until they scratched or had a poor quality or filler track that you couldn't easily ignore.



I'll never get on board  for the pay to download express.  Cds came a long way since their inception when often they were just duplications of music that was mastered for LP had just a single page insert and the back/sides thingy for cover art.  The LPs I hang on are mostly kept for either their cover art or being not available on CD. 
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 14 2012 at 09:34
I always heard it said tht CD's aren't very big money makers for the artist.  With the digital revolution, I could see how some artists may actually BENEFIT by recording/releasing their own material with less overhead.  Merchandise (T-shirts, posters) have traditionally provided some income, but let's face it, prog bands don't get a lot of adult money for t-shirts and posters.  Gigs used to be the big moneymaker for average to wel-known bands.
 
I dunno, I'm not an industry whiz, but i do miss the Album/CD art that seems to be faing away.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 13 2012 at 15:54

I'd say I'm with most people here...it's a double edged sword.

I'm in the business...but I am also, of course,  a music lover...and as such, will go to great ends to get something I want.
I like the artwork and I like the physical product that an artist delivers.
The effort the band put into creating a product needs to be acknowledged, one feels.

I know how difficult it is to create something like that, the time it takes and nights lost fearing about your business future...so why would you want just collection of O's and 1' bleeping on your laptop, when you can have a glorious colour booklet to peruse, while you spin the CD?

Sure, by all means...rip to your computer or I-monkey (whatever)...but I insist on lossless copying or I reject it out of hand.
Hell, I even get annoyed about having to share 320kps, 44'100 Hz MP3's with people as a means of promo.
I miss the older days for sending a CD in a slipcase...but convenience and money rule now.
 
For a band in the position we are in, we NEED sales or we get dropped, simple as that....and thus, here is a my argument AGAINST piracy and such.
If you buy the MP3's, then great...cheers, you're a pal.
If not, then you're kind of scummy really.

It is theft and there isn't any other way to argue the case.
I discuss this subject quite a lot with people I meet on the road and it's always interesting to hear poeple opinions.
The fact the industry took SOOOOOO long to embrace the 'digital age' is their own fault and as such, a lot of labels have gone down the drain or 're-structured'.
 
I could go on for hours about this subject...but alas...it's hometime from work and I have a bottle of beer to consume.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2011 at 15:35
i've pretty much embraced the digital revolution - although I own hundreds of CDs most of the music i buy now is on MP3 or listened to via Spotify.
CDs were a  poor substitute for the joy of a double gate-fold sleeve anyway and I don't really miss them.
LPs were great until they scratched or had a poor quality or filler track that you couldn't easily ignore.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2011 at 14:38
Thank God for internet applications like Youtube, Prog Archives  etc where we can be exposed to this music, where before we were dependent on a few DJs, record stores and friendswho may or may not have played prog,
 
TS if you were out in the boondocks where the only music played was country or greatest hits music
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2011 at 17:58
Originally posted by Jbird Jbird wrote:

Originally posted by MarkOne MarkOne wrote:


Merch desks at the gigs are the best opportunity to sell CDs, and these are often not very busy.  I guess for every 100 people at the gig, maybe 5 or perhaps 10 buy the CDs.
 
If I care enough about a band to pay the bucks to see them in concert, chances are I own at least all of their studio albums at least. I'm by no means a collector of even my favorite bands. I don't own all the special editions, special live albums, singles w/an unreleased B-side, etc unless I find it for cheap, but I'll have all of their 'standard' releases almost guaranteed.
 
Therefore, I almost never buy cd's at concerts. I'd bet alot more are like me, too.

I guess I was thinking of a different kind of gig, the kind of cellar club with a couple of bands, each with one or two indie releases, each scaring up 20 or so mates and hoping that their leafleting of the area and hopefully the noise on the street outside will entice in some extra punters, as might the happy hour bar prices.  I'm really talking the long-tail end of the business not the 1000 seat city venue tour with trucks and a tour bus. But where you can have a beer with the bass player and lead vocalist...

I go to quite a few of these type of gig, bands with tiny followings who have outlaid several grand of personal money to get their music recorded, who might get some positive noise on sites like this and are trying to get heard.

And as far as I can tell much of the prog scene is exactly like I describe.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2011 at 17:47
Originally posted by MarkOne MarkOne wrote:


Merch desks at the gigs are the best opportunity to sell CDs, and these are often not very busy.  I guess for every 100 people at the gig, maybe 5 or perhaps 10 buy the CDs.
 
If I care enough about a band to pay the bucks to see them in concert, chances are I own at least all of their studio albums at least. I'm by no means a collector of even my favorite bands. I don't own all the special editions, special live albums, singles w/an unreleased B-side, etc unless I find it for cheap, but I'll have all of their 'standard' releases almost guaranteed.
 
Therefore, I almost never buy cd's at concerts. I'd bet alot more are like me, too.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 18 2011 at 12:56
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

That's a pretty ambitious suggestion, TODDLER, and would take a real dreamer given the bad rep prog goes.  The question is why do people who do listen to progressive music like jazz restrict themselves to just jazz and why not progressive music within rock? From the time I got into Western music, I have never understood the obsession with formats nor understood how one could get through being exclusively focused on one format because I never could. I would get very bored, very quickly of listening to one kind of music all the time.  To that extent, I feel a bit disappointed with those audiences who only listen to classical or jazz or even musicians who restrict themselves to specific formats?  Why shut doors and why not open your mind instead? If I could go from listening to complacent Indian music to, um, grindcore, I really cannot fathom jazz snobbery at all.  What's the big deal? It would hand in hand give all sorts of musicians a bigger audience rather than having to carefully cultivate fragmented niches.
You could say that Jeff Beck neglected practicing guitar as he spent long hours working on cars. On the guitar he seems to desire staying on the same playing level and allowing his talents of progression to evolve slowly INSTEAD of some over the top player who practices feverishly between 12 to 15 hours a day. The serious Jazz musicians who vary in different sections of the world and it's highest numbers in population being in the United States for sure.......would look down upon this and express that snobby Jazz mentalityShocked  There are no inbetween's with this and it depends on what particular music college you choose. 
 
Jazz music presents an observation for me. It derives from the "Black Community" and was developed through their bloodline. Their bloodline into the creation of new music....Blues, "Rock N' Roll", Jazz, Gospel and to minus all that inventive music from the western culture ....it would be scary to imagine what would have developed instead. I am very thankful they developed this music in America. 
 
So many positives and negatives in music culture and obviously within all walks of life...but more extreme with the emotional side to being a musician and struggling for that serious life. I believe that an ego should shut itself down every so often  like hitting a switch. Musicians who struggle with their lack of talent to master something new...yet are talented enough to be great writers often become discouraged over themselves and desire to be egotistical for power. A great player who is humble will struggle with a difficult piece of music and not think of themselves and only focus on the art. I'm not sure why great musicians have ego's. There is a personal history of composers centuries ago who were put under extreme pressure to write the perfect composition. They seem to have a different upbringing where the evidence of ego driven ideas begin at age 13. One kid who is multi talented tells the other kid (who is quite talented at only one particular instrument)....that he must be a moron because he does not know what a rudiment is. Every child or teenager travels through the identity crisis ...but one day they will be sitting in music college hearing some devoted musician playing the most inferior pieces in the world. They either have to wake up then and realize that the possibilities are endless in music and that the smart thing to do would be to remain humble or become a nasty ego inflated baby. Which is how a lot of great musicians turn out because their parents were not musicians yet forced a macho attitude upon them that doesn't work well in the development of an instrument.

You already have hours of hard devotion on an instrument.....letting your ego stand in the way is the last thing on earth you want.  Parents will force the wrong kind of encouragment or support to the child. My dog is better than your dog or my son can pitch a baseball finer than yours. Then the kid is excepted into music college at 18 and some respected music professor teaches him a thing or 2 about music and about what dedicated musicians define as practices. Now the kid thinks to himself...."Why was my father teaching me all this nonsense?"  Why do that to your kid? Why not tell them the truth in the beginning and then prepare them for the trials in music college Parents do not want their children to lack confidence yet their macho method of raising them will shatter into pieces when their child is faced with the realization that he/she must study more..... and that alone is quite a larger blow to a full blown ego well developed at age 18 than any honest step in life they could have taken to prevent the nightmare itself.     


Edited by TODDLER - December 18 2011 at 13:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2011 at 13:35
Originally posted by 7headedchicken 7headedchicken wrote:

Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

The thing that bothers me the most about the MP3 becoming more commercial than CD's is that we are taking a step backwards as far as sound quality is concerned. I'm afraid I do listen on my Ipod very often because of it's portability, but I like much better to buy CD's. I'm not yet into SACD or such things, but I want at least CD quality. Now, if the hard drives of Ipods, and even computers could carry without problem the hundreds or thousends of songs on WAV files (as well as internet being fast enough for downloading such files instead of MP3), it wouldn't bother me so much to buy my music online.
That's another reason I prefer Cd's, besides the physical aspect.  Supposedly, the higher quality mp3's sound as good or better, but I haven't heard any myself that sound as good... maybe technically they are higher quality, but something is missing.  I've noticed that even some radio stations today are playing mp3's now, which is a step in the wrong direction, I think.  Not all, though - there are still a few around that play real CD's, and believe it or not, there are a select few that still play vinyl.

Higher quality mp3s do sound as good, but your output source does not. An iPod will never be as good a source as a CD player hence poorer audio quality, it's not the actual MP3s that are the problem...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2011 at 13:09
Originally posted by Dellinger Dellinger wrote:

The thing that bothers me the most about the MP3 becoming more commercial than CD's is that we are taking a step backwards as far as sound quality is concerned. I'm afraid I do listen on my Ipod very often because of it's portability, but I like much better to buy CD's. I'm not yet into SACD or such things, but I want at least CD quality. Now, if the hard drives of Ipods, and even computers could carry without problem the hundreds or thousends of songs on WAV files (as well as internet being fast enough for downloading such files instead of MP3), it wouldn't bother me so much to buy my music online.
That's another reason I prefer Cd's, besides the physical aspect.  Supposedly, the higher quality mp3's sound as good or better, but I haven't heard any myself that sound as good... maybe technically they are higher quality, but something is missing.  I've noticed that even some radio stations today are playing mp3's now, which is a step in the wrong direction, I think.  Not all, though - there are still a few around that play real CD's, and believe it or not, there are a select few that still play vinyl.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2011 at 11:20
technology, development, industry.... we all know the game, what we gain, what we lose, as we move forward.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2011 at 11:04
Originally posted by thehallway thehallway wrote:

Originally posted by Warthur Warthur wrote:

Originally posted by zumacraig zumacraig wrote:

my main point was that lots of pop/rock artists have to play live to make money because no one buys music anymore. the 'good' prog bands can still make money selling CDs.  

i always wonder how these guys do it.  i mean, does neal mores have a day job?
My guess would be is that most active prog musicians have day jobs of one kind or another. The exceptions would be:

- People in very successful bands who can afford to be professional musicials. Even then I think they'd have to play live regularly to sustain themselves but I actually think this is no bad thing.
- People whose "day jobs" essentially consist of being a musician in some other context. Session musician, writer of TV/radio jingles, that sort of thing.
- People whose "day jobs" involves serving the prog economy. For instance, Mick Pointer of Arena fame is Clive Nolan's business partner in Verglas and spends a lot of his time handling the paperwork and logistics side of running the label.

You are correct. There are plenty of ways for musicians to earn money if they try, and they can all involve music. Writing and sending songs to people, doing session work, private tuition, arranging jobs, touring with established acts..... these are the ways you earn money while you wait for your own music to make or break you.

Fans in general just aren't aware of day-to-day survival in the music industry, because these are normal, practical jobs that don't need publicising. So it's really not as bleak as being either a totally rich prog icon or a complete nobody with a ton of debt. You work your way up, as in any job, and no..... it isn't easy!

I agree with this. I have many musician friends who worked their way up. but it's just that I recall when we were all taken care of and provided for by a corporation. Then we all went downhill and started up again with a new vision that we were to provide for ourselves. I found it a strange realization that all my studio time and touring was financed by big wigs for 10 years and I still hit rock bottom. You can truly get used to that kind of treatment and then one day it is gone. Start your engine for another round.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2011 at 05:34
^^^ That depends on what rate they are ripped at. I would ideally like to listen to my CDs on the speakers at home but since that is not always possible, I rip them at 320 kbps to mp3 and copy it to the ipod. I am quite satisfied with the quality I get and it is discernibly better than, say, the sound quality on youtube links of the same songs.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2011 at 19:11
The thing that bothers me the most about the MP3 becoming more commercial than CD's is that we are taking a step backwards as far as sound quality is concerned. I'm afraid I do listen on my Ipod very often because of it's portability, but I like much better to buy CD's. I'm not yet into SACD or such things, but I want at least CD quality. Now, if the hard drives of Ipods, and even computers could carry without problem the hundreds or thousends of songs on WAV files (as well as internet being fast enough for downloading such files instead of MP3), it wouldn't bother me so much to buy my music online.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2011 at 10:14
Originally posted by Warthur Warthur wrote:

Originally posted by zumacraig zumacraig wrote:

my main point was that lots of pop/rock artists have to play live to make money because no one buys music anymore. the 'good' prog bands can still make money selling CDs.  

i always wonder how these guys do it.  i mean, does neal mores have a day job?
My guess would be is that most active prog musicians have day jobs of one kind or another. The exceptions would be:

- People in very successful bands who can afford to be professional musicials. Even then I think they'd have to play live regularly to sustain themselves but I actually think this is no bad thing.
- People whose "day jobs" essentially consist of being a musician in some other context. Session musician, writer of TV/radio jingles, that sort of thing.
- People whose "day jobs" involves serving the prog economy. For instance, Mick Pointer of Arena fame is Clive Nolan's business partner in Verglas and spends a lot of his time handling the paperwork and logistics side of running the label.

You are correct. There are plenty of ways for musicians to earn money if they try, and they can all involve music. Writing and sending songs to people, doing session work, private tuition, arranging jobs, touring with established acts..... these are the ways you earn money while you wait for your own music to make or break you.

Fans in general just aren't aware of day-to-day survival in the music industry, because these are normal, practical jobs that don't need publicising. So it's really not as bleak as being either a totally rich prog icon or a complete nobody with a ton of debt. You work your way up, as in any job, and no..... it isn't easy!



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2011 at 07:03
I try to only buy CDs, but really at the moment the albums I'm looking for are usually 2-3 times more expensive on Cd than MP3 or simply not available in a physical format. It's a shame, but I'm not rich right now, so downloads are my main source of music at the moment.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2011 at 16:59
I prefer CDs above all else. I only buy Records and Tapes if I'm at a Half Priced Books or a record shop and only buy MP3s on the rare occasion that it's not available on anything else.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2011 at 16:57
I've a mixed opinion. I only buy Records and Tapes when I'm at a Half Priced Books. And I only get MP3s if thats the only medium it's on, but that's quite rare. I buy all else on CD because of the quality and availability.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 12 2011 at 16:35
Originally posted by AlexDOM AlexDOM wrote:

Mp3s are nice and convenient for songs, not albums. And for prog, albums define a band not a song. Therefore I love the cd or vinyl. There's something about the physicality of them. You can touch them, feel them, smell them, and read along with the lyrics. Some artists do a fantastic job with the lyric booklets as well. I am someone that buys a lot of Morse since he's my favorite. He packages stuff very well and all his booklets are awesome, filled with pictures, notes, lyrics that are in cool fonts, and such ha ha. I mean yeah I rip them to my computer and put them on my sony walkman, but I still enjoy the physical cd. And recently I got into vinyls which I've grown to love. This is dorky, but I love taking them out of the giant sleeve in a giant case. Then put the needle on it and watch it spin. It's part of the whole experience. Plus the sound quality is so organic. It's vintage.
Sure I like to buy an mp3 here or there of some song or something. I sometimes get mp3 albums (but not often). But I will always support the physical any day. And used cds are always cheap.  Or I buy from the artist or record company site giving them 100% support.
Albums do define bands moreso than songs, especially with prog... and I'm right there with you also on the vinyl thing.  Hopefully, enough people will retain their appreciation for the album as a physical art form, so that all bands can continue to sell records and CD's.
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