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toroddfuglesteg View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toroddfuglesteg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2011 at 17:24

It seems like the word "trade union" no longer means workers standing shoulder to shoulder. The new definition of this previously honourable term means workers selling each others down the river for a fistful of banknotes. We are all equal, but some are more equal than others.

In case some wonder. The new meaning of the term Trade Union here in the UK is now that "an union of likeminded individuals fighting for their special privileges paid for by lower paid workers in other sectors of the economy paying higher taxes and working longer to fund these priveleges".  

I am thoroughly disgusted. And I see no future for the trade unions movement after they walked into this trap as a bull running into a Spanish bull fighting arena.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JJLehto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2011 at 19:17
Guess things really aren't that different in different countries after all.
I know back in the day (before my day) unions were indeed honorable (not to all) and about workers rights but by today they are viewed by most in the US with huge skepticism and negativity.
Even though in theory I support the idea, in real life it's as you said Torodd. They are pretty much useless, and just use its members to get a lot of money for themselves. Also they act foolishly.

The state of NJ is in a bad financial situation but the teachers union here is sending people to our door and lobbying for MORE spending on them. Not only that, the idea of them contributing to their own pensions sent them up a wall, even though the firemen and police have to contribute to their own. Pretty much only they don't, aren't willing to do so and then want more from us! What a bunch of selfish kids... and I'm a HUGE supporter of teachers even!


Edited by JJLehto - November 30 2011 at 19:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akamaisondufromage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2011 at 14:52
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

It seems like the word "trade union" no longer means workers standing shoulder to shoulder. The new definition of this previously honourable term means workers selling each others down the river for a fistful of banknotes. We are all equal, but some are more equal than others.

In case some wonder. The new meaning of the term Trade Union here in the UK is now that "an union of likeminded individuals fighting for their special privileges paid for by lower paid workers in other sectors of the economy paying higher taxes and working longer to fund these priveleges".  

I am thoroughly disgusted. And I see no future for the trade unions movement after they walked into this trap as a bull running into a Spanish bull fighting arena.

 
Tosh!  I assume you are saying the Unions shouldn't fight for the pension rights of the Public Workers You know the ones they agreed when they signed up to work in the public sector.  I suppose you have bought this line that we should get the same pension rights as the private sector who have ben sold out by their pension providers.  Rather than fight for everyone to get a decent pension after all that would be stupid wouldn't it.  Of course its not a problem private pensions getting tax relief ie being subsidised by you and me.  But if the public sector is then they should bloody well accept the real world where nobodyy has a decent pension.   The Government wants to split public and private so they can do what the f**k they want.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2011 at 15:48

I will admit that some unions are not very good at protecting the interests of workers and some of the union bosses are more interested in lining their own pockets as opposed to protecting the workers.  But what I can't understand is why others in the middle class demonize workers uniting at all to protect their rights.  I heard it a lot in discussions with people about Scott (der fuhrer) Walker's union-busting.  Also, I've heard conservatives blast government workers because they often have better benefits and wages and working conditions than the private sector.  Ok.  That is often the case.  The response to that should not be to make working conditions worse for government workers, but to make conditions better for those who labor in the private sector.  Let's raise private sector wages and benefits for the workers at the bottom and lower them for the workers at the top.  Then there would be more parity and the conservatives could stop their complaining about how "overpaid" public sector workers are. 

Finally, on the subject of teachers, what ever happened to the old adage you get what you pay for?  I love conservatives who want to decrease teacher pay and benefits yet want to hold them to the highest of standards.  When you're paying a teacher $30K a year (barely a livable wage) and pack them in classes with 35 students, you can't expect these teachers to turn out 35 Einsteins.  You want quality teachers, pay them more, and reduce class sizes.  Then you will attract better, more capable teachers.  But of course that doesn't fit in with the overall conservative plan to dumb down america in order to create a cheap labor force for our corporate masters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2011 at 15:58
You can pay teachers all you want. When your system of education consists of treating kids like prisoners, training them in rote memorization like dogs, teaching them to never question authority, etc. you not going to turn out anything. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2011 at 16:03
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

You can pay teachers all you want. When your system of education consists of treating kids like prisoners, training them in rote memorization like dogs, teaching them to never question authority, etc. you not going to turn out anything. 
 
Funny.  I didn't have that experience when I was in school.  But that was in the 80's, and I know things have changed somewhat.  I had excellent teachers and thought that I received a good education.  In a public school, btw. 
I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2011 at 16:06
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

You can pay teachers all you want. When your system of education consists of treating kids like prisoners, training them in rote memorization like dogs, teaching them to never question authority, etc. you not going to turn out anything. 


Precisely.  You can pay me six figures and there's no way I could completely fix what 11 years of recent public education has sent my way.


Edited by Epignosis - December 01 2011 at 16:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toroddfuglesteg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2011 at 16:09
Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

It seems like the word "trade union" no longer means workers standing shoulder to shoulder. The new definition of this previously honourable term means workers selling each others down the river for a fistful of banknotes. We are all equal, but some are more equal than others.

In case some wonder. The new meaning of the term Trade Union here in the UK is now that "an union of likeminded individuals fighting for their special privileges paid for by lower paid workers in other sectors of the economy paying higher taxes and working longer to fund these priveleges".  

I am thoroughly disgusted. And I see no future for the trade unions movement after they walked into this trap as a bull running into a Spanish bull fighting arena.

 
Tosh!  I assume you are saying the Unions shouldn't fight for the pension rights of the Public Workers You know the ones they agreed when they signed up to work in the public sector.  I suppose you have bought this line that we should get the same pension rights as the private sector who have ben sold out by their pension providers.  Rather than fight for everyone to get a decent pension after all that would be stupid wouldn't it.  Of course its not a problem private pensions getting tax relief ie being subsidised by you and me.  But if the public sector is then they should bloody well accept the real world where nobodyy has a decent pension.   The Government wants to split public and private so they can do what the f**k they want.

In the real world, there is something called money. The lack of it, that is.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2011 at 16:12
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Finally, on the subject of teachers, what ever happened to the old adage you get what you pay for?  I love conservatives who want to decrease teacher pay and benefits yet want to hold them to the highest of standards.  When you're paying a teacher $30K a year (barely a livable wage) and pack them in classes with 35 students, you can't expect these teachers to turn out 35 Einsteins.  You want quality teachers, pay them more, and reduce class sizes.  Then you will attract better, more capable teachers.  But of course that doesn't fit in with the overall conservative plan to dumb down america in order to create a cheap labor force for our corporate masters.


Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Funny.  I didn't have that experience when I was in school.  But that was in the 80's, and I know things have changed somewhat.  I had excellent teachers and thought that I received a good education.  In a public school, btw. 


A good education entails making sweeping generalizations and treating exceptions as though they're the rule? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2011 at 16:14
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Finally, on the subject of teachers, what ever happened to the old adage you get what you pay for?  I love conservatives who want to decrease teacher pay and benefits yet want to hold them to the highest of standards.  When you're paying a teacher $30K a year (barely a livable wage) and pack them in classes with 35 students, you can't expect these teachers to turn out 35 Einsteins.  You want quality teachers, pay them more, and reduce class sizes.  Then you will attract better, more capable teachers.  But of course that doesn't fit in with the overall conservative plan to dumb down america in order to create a cheap labor force for our corporate masters.


Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Funny.  I didn't have that experience when I was in school.  But that was in the 80's, and I know things have changed somewhat.  I had excellent teachers and thought that I received a good education.  In a public school, btw. 


A good education entails making sweeping generalizations and treating exceptions as though they're the rule? 
 
As a matter of fact it does.  Stern Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akamaisondufromage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2011 at 16:17
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

It seems like the word "trade union" no longer means workers standing shoulder to shoulder. The new definition of this previously honourable term means workers selling each others down the river for a fistful of banknotes. We are all equal, but some are more equal than others.

In case some wonder. The new meaning of the term Trade Union here in the UK is now that "an union of likeminded individuals fighting for their special privileges paid for by lower paid workers in other sectors of the economy paying higher taxes and working longer to fund these priveleges".  

I am thoroughly disgusted. And I see no future for the trade unions movement after they walked into this trap as a bull running into a Spanish bull fighting arena.

 
Tosh!  I assume you are saying the Unions shouldn't fight for the pension rights of the Public Workers You know the ones they agreed when they signed up to work in the public sector.  I suppose you have bought this line that we should get the same pension rights as the private sector who have ben sold out by their pension providers.  Rather than fight for everyone to get a decent pension after all that would be stupid wouldn't it.  Of course its not a problem private pensions getting tax relief ie being subsidised by you and me.  But if the public sector is then they should bloody well accept the real world where nobodyy has a decent pension.   The Government wants to split public and private so they can do what the f**k they want.

In the real world, there is something called money. The lack of it, that is.  


 
And the Hutton enquiry said the public sector pensions are affordable and sustainable.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2011 at 16:23
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

Originally posted by akamaisondufromage akamaisondufromage wrote:

Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

It seems like the word "trade union" no longer means workers standing shoulder to shoulder. The new definition of this previously honourable term means workers selling each others down the river for a fistful of banknotes. We are all equal, but some are more equal than others.

In case some wonder. The new meaning of the term Trade Union here in the UK is now that "an union of likeminded individuals fighting for their special privileges paid for by lower paid workers in other sectors of the economy paying higher taxes and working longer to fund these priveleges".  

I am thoroughly disgusted. And I see no future for the trade unions movement after they walked into this trap as a bull running into a Spanish bull fighting arena.

 
Tosh!  I assume you are saying the Unions shouldn't fight for the pension rights of the Public Workers You know the ones they agreed when they signed up to work in the public sector.  I suppose you have bought this line that we should get the same pension rights as the private sector who have ben sold out by their pension providers.  Rather than fight for everyone to get a decent pension after all that would be stupid wouldn't it.  Of course its not a problem private pensions getting tax relief ie being subsidised by you and me.  But if the public sector is then they should bloody well accept the real world where nobodyy has a decent pension.   The Government wants to split public and private so they can do what the f**k they want.

In the real world, there is something called money. The lack of it, that is.  


There is money.  It is just untouchable because our holy lords, the rich will not let the American people touch that money.  America doesn't have a spending problem.  America has a greedy a.h. problem.  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Epignosis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2011 at 16:26
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Finally, on the subject of teachers, what ever happened to the old adage you get what you pay for?  I love conservatives who want to decrease teacher pay and benefits yet want to hold them to the highest of standards.  When you're paying a teacher $30K a year (barely a livable wage) and pack them in classes with 35 students, you can't expect these teachers to turn out 35 Einsteins.  You want quality teachers, pay them more, and reduce class sizes.  Then you will attract better, more capable teachers.  But of course that doesn't fit in with the overall conservative plan to dumb down america in order to create a cheap labor force for our corporate masters.


Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Funny.  I didn't have that experience when I was in school.  But that was in the 80's, and I know things have changed somewhat.  I had excellent teachers and thought that I received a good education.  In a public school, btw. 


A good education entails making sweeping generalizations and treating exceptions as though they're the rule? 
 
As a matter of fact it does.  Stern Smile


Just checking.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote toroddfuglesteg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2011 at 16:28

Hi Akamaisondufromage.

We are here debating best case scenario from yesterday. Today, that is history and the screw on the Spanish Inquisition torture instrument we are all attached to now has been tightened tonight. I work myself in the public sector and I am in the 40s, age wise. If the retirement age when I and people of my age retire is not 75 and I am not paying at least twice of what I pay in today with a 20 % effective loss of purchase power , I will gladly call you God, build a religious cult around you and give you a shiny sports car as a sign of my appreciation. 

The party is over. You can write resolutions until you get blue in your face. But the party is over and the screws on the   Spanish Inquisition torture instrument you and I is attached to will be tightened more and more and more. And there is nothing you can do with it. Nothing.  

I hope you had a good demo yesterday. Staying fit and getting fresh air is very important. Even when doing pointless excersises like yesterday's walks. 



Edited by toroddfuglesteg - December 01 2011 at 16:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Syzygy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2011 at 16:31
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

It seems like the word "trade union" no longer means workers standing shoulder to shoulder. The new definition of this previously honourable term means workers selling each others down the river for a fistful of banknotes. We are all equal, but some are more equal than others.

In case some wonder. The new meaning of the term Trade Union here in the UK is now that "an union of likeminded individuals fighting for their special privileges paid for by lower paid workers in other sectors of the economy paying higher taxes and working longer to fund these priveleges".  

I am thoroughly disgusted. And I see no future for the trade unions movement after they walked into this trap as a bull running into a Spanish bull fighting arena.

Bollocks!
 
I was on the picket line yesterday and later at the rally on Victoria embankment. Under the banner 'Fair Pensions For All' the rhetoric of the 30 unions involved was that, rather than the race to the bottom that 'call me Dave' seems so keen on, all workers in both the private and public sectors should receive a decent basic pension.
A few points to consider:
  • secondary action is illegal. A union can only strike on behalf of its own members. If you're angry about the state of pensions (as you should be), join a union and agitate for some action.
  • the Teacher's pension scheme was reformed in 2007, along broadly the lines suggested for other public sector pensions, and according to the Hutton report is affordable, sustainable, has a £46 billion surplus and is set to fall as a % of GDP over the next 30 years. These reforms were accepted as necessary and inevitable and with no industrial action. We've already taken a hit. This latest reform is nothing to do with affordablity and everything to do with ripping up the contracts that were signed so somebody else can pay for the banking system's mistakes.
  • average public sector pensions are actually very modest - the figures quoted in the Daily Heil are based on people with 40+ years in service at the top of the salary scale - a small minority, set to become ever smaller as increasingly the public sector relies on short term contracts for most lower level posts
  • if you're working for a large corporation and your pension is worth the square root of Censored all, it's because your employer doesn't think you're worth it. The world's money supply hasn't dried up for the CEOs of FTSE 100 companies - whose dismal performance is part of the reason so many private sector pensions are in such a poor state
  • not much of the private sector actually creates wealth, and a lot of the private sector would go to the wall without public sector contracts. The two sectors are dependent on each other
  • don't believe the hype. If you really think it's such a cushy number in the public sector, you can always apply for a post in the civil service or your local authority

I'll happily exchange my gilt edged pension for Jeremy Censoredwit Clarkson's any time he likes. Applications to join unions have jumped by over 100% in the last few weeks and even head teachers (those well known bastions of sedition) strike for the first time ever in their century plus history. And if you ever do take industrial action , let me know and I'll happily contribute a day's wages to you union's strike fund. 

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to the already rich among us...'

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2011 at 16:31
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Finally, on the subject of teachers, what ever happened to the old adage you get what you pay for?  I love conservatives who want to decrease teacher pay and benefits yet want to hold them to the highest of standards.  When you're paying a teacher $30K a year (barely a livable wage) and pack them in classes with 35 students, you can't expect these teachers to turn out 35 Einsteins.  You want quality teachers, pay them more, and reduce class sizes.  Then you will attract better, more capable teachers.  But of course that doesn't fit in with the overall conservative plan to dumb down america in order to create a cheap labor force for our corporate masters.


Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Funny.  I didn't have that experience when I was in school.  But that was in the 80's, and I know things have changed somewhat.  I had excellent teachers and thought that I received a good education.  In a public school, btw. 


A good education entails making sweeping generalizations and treating exceptions as though they're the rule? 
 
As a matter of fact it does.  Stern Smile


Just checking.
The finger emoticon was unavailable.  Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rushfan4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2011 at 16:33
You could have posted JJ's signature.
 
The international sign for "You're number one"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Doctor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2011 at 16:38
^ Damn.  LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote akamaisondufromage Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2011 at 16:39
Originally posted by toroddfuglesteg toroddfuglesteg wrote:

Hi Akamaisondufromage.

We are here debating best case scenario from yesterday. Today, that is history and the screw on the Spanish Inquisition torture instrument we are all attached to now has been tightened tonight. I work myself in the public sector and I am in the 40s, age wise. If the retirement age when I and people of my age retire is not 75 and I am not paying at least twice of what I pay in today with a 20 % effective loss of purchase power , I will gladly call you God, build a religious cult around you and give you a shiny sports car as a sign of my appreciation. 

The party is over. You can write resolutions until you get blue in your face. But the party is over and the screws on the   Spanish Inquisition torture instrument you and I is attached to will be tightened more and more and more. And there is nothing you can do with it. Nothing.  

I hope you had a good demo yesterday. Staying fit and getting fresh air is very important. Even when doing pointless excersises like yesterday's walks. 

 
A Porche would be nice toroddfuglesteg.  I look forward to having a religious holiday named after me.  
 
You may well be right especially if the pensions become so poor that people begin to opt out.  Then the Tories really can say they are unaffordable. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Equality 7-2521 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2011 at 16:48
Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

You can pay teachers all you want. When your system of education consists of treating kids like prisoners, training them in rote memorization like dogs, teaching them to never question authority, etc. you not going to turn out anything. 
 
Funny.  I didn't have that experience when I was in school.  But that was in the 80's, and I know things have changed somewhat.  I had excellent teachers and thought that I received a good education.  In a public school, btw. 


There's something I would usually say here about sample size and using personal experiences and memory to collect data, but instead I'm going to say that you most likely learned in spite of your education as most people do.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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