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The song is almost entire in 4/4 but there is a part in the verse that is in 5/8 and I think is very impressive, because this album is from 1.973, and have some things that reminds me lots of Lars tongue's in Aspic and Red of KC for example.
For instance, anyone knows the first odd time signature changes in the history of prog?
I can't help but think that the 'odd' in this title's thread is erm....relative to yer culture e.g. Eastern European folk music (the songs that the peasants passed on orally from one generation to another) are often in time-signatures as diverse as 5/4, 7/8, 9/8 and (gulp) 22/16. These are unusual meters for western popular music certainly, but when you hear these songs they don't sound 'odd' because the time signature is sourced from the completely natural phrase length of the lyrics. I enjoy progressive music that deploys metric shifts as much as anyone, but it's probably the dumbing down of generic popular music as a means to appeal to the most lucrative markets that has elevated 'odd' time signatures to the mantle of western 'sophistication' (they originate from its antithesis innit?)
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Posted: November 12 2011 at 23:50
p1ll80r wrote:
Ei guys,
Have you noticed that RPI band?
The song is almost entire in 4/4 but there is a part in the verse that is in 5/8 and I think is very impressive, because this album is from 1.973, and have some things that reminds me lots of Lars tongue's in Aspic and Red of KC for example.
For instance, anyone knows the first odd time signature changes in the history of prog?
Frank Zappa Lumpy Gravy 1967, could be a contender.
Check 1:38-3:40 The "Oh No" section:
BTW the Museo Rosenbach song sounds like it's predominantly in 6/8. You're right about 5/8 part though.
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Posted: November 13 2011 at 09:13
There are a lot of odd signatures in Greek music. I recently went to a restaurant with live music, and some of the customers were dancing effortlessly to 7/8. When I asked one of them later, he didn’t even know what 7/8 was. A woman in his company understood what I meant and said that they called it the 12 steps dance. I have to try to count the steps next time I see it.
My point is that what we call "odd" signatures in Western culture don’t seem odd at all if you go to other cultures. Here you will frequently find songs in 5, 7 or 9 (grouped like 3/4+3/8 or 4/4+5/4 – for instance in the free solo dance called zeibekiko). (Looking at the Wiki article about zeibekiko, especially the discussion page, I realise that people don’t agree when it comes to the signature– some say it’s nearly always 9/4, others say 9/8. I guess the composers didn’t care anyway.)
He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
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Posted: November 13 2011 at 13:06
refugee wrote:
Looking at the Wiki article about zeibekiko, especially the discussion page, I realise that people don’t agree when it comes to the signature– some say it’s nearly always 9/4, others say 9/8. I guess the composers didn’t care anyway.)
Partly it's about writing convention. I have an interesting inteview with spanish modern classical composer Joan Albert Amargos (who in his youth led the amazing prog band Musica Urbana, not in PA but which I strongly recommend to every prog lover). In it he explains that when writing music with odd time signatures (to be played by an orchestra) you can do it 2 ways , for example:
1- you write it directly in the "pure" signature of each single bar, so let's say after 12 bars in 4/4 you switch to 7/4 then to 6/8, then to 5/8 etc etc.
2- you write as much as possible in a stable signature (let's say 4/4 for the sake of example), and then in order for the notes to be in the same place you have quite many off-beat notes. But the result is exactly the same as with method 1.
Of course this is an oversimplification but the message is, in method 2 whenever possible you try not to change the script time signature and just write the music on the preceding signature. If the signature has to make an obvious change, then of course you have to change it, but only when you have no choice.
According to J.A. Amargos method 2 is much more comfortable for the musicians who have to play the work.
He puts the example of Stravinsky's The Rite Of Spring, which Stravinsky wrote with all the changes in time signature but when he had to direct it himself he said "If I knew I had to direct it myself I would have written it in an easier way", and indeed currently there are transcriptions of this work that do not change the time signature so much in the script for the musicians (while of course everything sounds exactly the same).
Anyway this does not change the OP subject, but just to remark that "time signature" is not only about "real timing feel" in music but it has also a music writing angle which is not necessarily equal.
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Posted: November 13 2011 at 14:49
He puts the example of Stravinsky's The Rite Of Spring, which Stravinsky wrote with all the changes in time signature but when he had to direct it himself he said "If I knew I had to direct it myself I would have written it in an easier way", and indeed currently there are transcriptions of this work that do not change the time signature so much in the script for the musicians (while of course everything sounds exactly the same).
[/QUOTE]
I read about that in one of Robert Craft’s books, but I remember it a bit differently. It’s more like he broke up 5 into 2+3 or 3+2, if I’m not mistaken. I found this on the internet (Stravinsky revised the score many times, and though this passage is about his Symphonies of Wind Instruments, I think it applies to Rite …as well):
The implications are significant: Could it be that Stravinsky mellowed out and “tweaked” his composition to reflect his current mood in 1947? Is it possible Stravinsky strove to erase the effects of some of the dramatic Russian period that still leaked over into his personal style in 1920, when reorchestrating this piece in 1947?
Looking at the scores, the macroscopic differences are as follows: • Meter/time signature. Stravinsky rebarred and remetered the composition, splitting 5/8 bars into their constituent 2+3 eighths in the introduction, for example. More significant is the type of change such as at 1920-4 and 1947-6. Replacing 3/4 with 2/4 and 4/4 with 3/4 changes the implied stresses within the phrases. This is clearly evidenced by the different phrase marks on the flute melody in this section. The recording reveals different breath placement.
The article is written by Jonathan Dimond. It’s a PDF, so I can’t link to it, but it’s easy to find.
He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)
Frank Zappa Lumpy Gravy 1967, could be a contender.
Check 1:38-3:40 The "Oh No" section:
BTW the Museo Rosenbach song sounds like it's predominantly in 6/8. You're right about 5/8 part though.
Oh, and welcome to the forum!
Thank you for the interesting Frank Zappa link!!!
it's possible that the Museo Rosenbach is in 6/8, since the ternary feeling ; )
Talking of odd meters, I'm from Spain and for exemple, flamenco music is full of odd time signatures, but I was asking only to know when prog incorporated the first time ejeje
Thank you for your welcoming to the forum, it's full of information and knowledge!
Living in the Past by Jethro Tull is in 5/4 Solsbury Hill by Peter Gabriel is in 5/4 (I think, haven't heard it for ages) Take 5 by Dave Brubeck is in (gulp) 5/4 America by the Nice could be considered 4/4 + 3/4 (well.... three triplet quarters at the end) or 6/8
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Posted: November 16 2011 at 11:38
^I thought about that one too. Another huge hit is Here Comes the Sun. The middle part (where they sing Sun, sun, sun, here it comes) starts in 11/8 and continues in … I don’t remember, but something odd for sure!
He say nothing is quite what it seems;
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Posted: November 16 2011 at 12:08
are their some odd time sigs on the Genesis ballad In Too Deep couse it have that odd-timing on the drums which just seems to go on forever, is it just wierd syncopation or is it some odd going on?
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Odd time-signatures apreciation
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p1ll80r wrote:
