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bucka001
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Posted: November 10 2011 at 02:39 |
JJLehto wrote:
More prog musicians should diss prog
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Most do, and trip over each other as they try and run away from the genre label.
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jc
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wilmon91
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Location: Sweden
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Posted: November 10 2011 at 09:13 |
JJLehto wrote:
More prog musicians should diss prog |
How strange is that. So what is your opinion on prog? If prog is just silly or lame , why do you listen to it?
Maybe music is just a big joke.
How can a prog musician have a passion for music while at the same time have no respect for it? Is it some sort of sickness? "I'm doing silly prog music, I can't help it".
It reminds me of the sort of commercial entertainment artists who are like clowns and see their own music as a sort of joke that has no meaning whatsoever. A swedish artist comes to mind, Markoolio.
So everyone should diss prog. Oh how cool.
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toroddfuglesteg
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Posted: November 10 2011 at 09:26 |
It is great to have a passion for something. But if you cannot take 5 steps back and see the whole picture + laugh a bit at yourself and find yourself and what you are doing a bit silly, you are in serious trouble. Worst of all; you will alienate people around you. It is my personal belief that when I stop laughing at myself, I am in serious problems. May that time not come because the mental asylums here are not that great. Rick Wakeman's hilarious biography and Ian Anderson's statements just gives me greater respect for both persons, prog rock and bands like Yes, Jethro Tull and the other prog rock greats.
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Catcher10
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Posted: November 10 2011 at 09:40 |
wilmon91 wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
More prog musicians should diss prog |
How strange is that. So what is your opinion on prog? If prog is just silly or lame , why do you listen to it?
Maybe music is just a big joke.
How can a prog musician have a passion for music while at the same time have no respect for it? Is it some sort of sickness? "I'm doing silly prog music, I can't help it".
It reminds me of the sort of commercial entertainment artists who are like clowns and see their own music as a sort of joke that has no meaning whatsoever. A swedish artist comes to mind, Markoolio.
So everyone should diss prog. Oh how cool. |
I'm sorry I don't listen to the artists I like because someone on a website or a doosh magazine reviewer has labeled them "prog". I don't come to this website on a daily basis because its progarchives. I come here because the artists people discuss and review is the kind of music I like......not because its prog...my God, that has nothing to do with it.
BTW....that's the basis for the album Thick As A Brick.......you go ahead and call it what you like. Its Rock, Metal, Pop, Prog......whatever floats your boat.
On this forum Jethro Tull is very popular.....so I guess its Pop Music.......but you would diss that label I suppose.
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wilmon91
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 15 2009
Location: Sweden
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Points: 698
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Posted: November 10 2011 at 09:57 |
toroddfuglesteg wrote:
if you cannot take 5 steps back and see the whole picture + laugh a bit at yourself and find yourself and what you are doing a bit silly, you are in serious trouble. |
Having self distance is a different thing. But slandering ones own work and others is more of a nervous behaviour showing lack of confidence and a need for praise. Like a child who makes a drawing and calling it ugly just so everyone else can say "no it's fine".
Of course self distance and humility are two good personal characteristics. But it doesn't mean that you have to disparage your own work. It's just childish.
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wilmon91
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 15 2009
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 698
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Posted: November 10 2011 at 10:10 |
Catcher10 wrote:
wilmon91 wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
More prog musicians should diss prog |
How strange is that. So what is your opinion on prog? If prog is just silly or lame , why do you listen to it?
Maybe music is just a big joke.
How can a prog musician have a passion for music while at the same time have no respect for it? Is it some sort of sickness? "I'm doing silly prog music, I can't help it".
It reminds me of the sort of commercial entertainment artists who are like clowns and see their own music as a sort of joke that has no meaning whatsoever. A swedish artist comes to mind, Markoolio.
So everyone should diss prog. Oh how cool. |
I'm sorry I don't listen to the artists I like because someone on a website or a doosh magazine reviewer has labeled them "prog". I don't come to this website on a daily basis because its progarchives. I come here because the artists people discuss and review is the kind of music I like......not because its prog...my God, that has nothing to do with it.
BTW....that's the basis for the album Thick As A Brick.......you go ahead and call it what you like. Its Rock, Metal, Pop, Prog......whatever floats your boat.
On this forum Jethro Tull is very popular.....so I guess its Pop Music.......but you would diss that label I suppose. |
The idea was to show more disrespect to prog, which means bands who are related to that genre. I found the idea strange. I don't think genres are relevant either, but the point is that every musician should stand for their own music.
And one should be careful in doing an evaluation of a whole genre , it will likely only produce stereotypical and untrue ideas.
Edited by wilmon91 - November 10 2011 at 10:25
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
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Points: 2720
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Posted: November 10 2011 at 10:43 |
So the best thing for you to do is have a whip-round to hire a hitman to bump off IA. Problem solved. His own bleedin' fault.
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toroddfuglesteg
Forum Senior Member
Retired
Joined: March 04 2008
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Posted: November 10 2011 at 10:51 |
wilmon91 wrote:
toroddfuglesteg wrote:
if you cannot take 5 steps back and see the whole picture + laugh a bit at yourself and find yourself and what you are doing a bit silly, you are in serious trouble. |
Having self distance is a different thing. But slandering ones own work and others is more of a nervous behaviour showing lack of confidence and a need for praise. Like a child who makes a drawing and calling it ugly just so everyone else can say "no it's fine".
Of course self distance and humility are two good personal characteristics. But it doesn't mean that you have to disparage your own work. It's just childish. |
No, it just shows he is a carrier of the British Humour Disease. I myself is a carrier of this disease too. It is a disease the scientists is working hard to find a cure against this very offensive disease which has caused so much damage in other countries. For example in your neigbouring country where this disease was banned from entering the country back in 1977-78. Terrible.
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Cactus Choir
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Joined: July 26 2008
Location: England
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Points: 1043
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Posted: November 10 2011 at 11:14 |
I’ve no problem with Anderson taking the mickey out of prog, but the “non mea culpa” sub-text to his comments is pretty rich. Anyone who thinks the world really needs a multi-song suite dedicated to his thoughts on organised religion obviously had a fairly severe bout of Cranium Up Posterior syndrome himself.
And his claim that Thick as a Brick was intended as a send-up of concept albums seems like after the fact rationalisation. The genre didn’t really come into vogue - and subsequently get a bad name - until a year or two later with Dark Side of the Moon, Tales from Topographic Oceans, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway etc.
In fact the success of TAAB might have kicked off the whole concept album onslaught. So actually it’s all YOUR fault Ian! (put that in your flute and smoke it).
An Anderson vs. Wakeman face-off in the pages of Classic Rock sounds like an excellent idea.
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"And now...on the drums...Mick Underwooooooooood!!!"
"He's up the pub"
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bucka001
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 16 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 864
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Posted: November 10 2011 at 13:15 |
Cactus Choir wrote:
And his claim that Thick as a Brick was intended as a send-up of concept albums seems like after the fact rationalisation. The genre didn’t really come into vogue - and subsequently get a bad name - until a year or two later with Dark Side of the Moon, Tales from Topographic Oceans, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway etc.
In fact the success of TAAB might have kicked off the whole concept album onslaught. So actually it’s all YOUR fault Ian! (put that in your flute and smoke it).
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Best comment so far IMO, and spot on. And done with a fair amount of humor, so everyone should be happy!!
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jc
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 28283
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Posted: November 10 2011 at 14:38 |
I think its all just banter tbh
30+ years ago Anderson accused ELP of just playing the same 20 songs every night.
Carl Palmer's response was 'true but we did at least change the order!'
priceless
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
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Points: 17748
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Posted: November 10 2011 at 17:06 |
bucka001 wrote:
Genesis, Yes, ELP, and Gentle Giant had their heads up their arses according to the Jethro Tull frontman...
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Hardly making fun of progressive music, and the spoof, originally, was strictly because a lot of the press and bands doing long cuts at the time, thought they were better and more and this and that ... and of course, PA bought it all lock stock barrell and bullet!
But it also tells you the English humor that Ian has that we are not adjusting to, and the local Brits today are not capable to enjoy since their judges are now shutting out all satires, especially Lady Gaga ... which tells you that the Brits are tired of Satire and fun and humor ... it's becoming very American in that sense!
Can you imagine telling Peter Cook, Dudley Moore, Bennet, Hall, and all those turkeys to shut up? ... might as well burn up Oxford and Cambridge ... and a whole generation ... but no ... we're so small minded that we take offense when someone is speaking the truth ... and Ian is basically telling you there is no difference between them ... maybe some clever lyrics and a clever sound effect or chord change here and there ... but I seriously doubt that PA would accept the idea of "spoof" on PA ... as progressive. That would mean changing their definition and .... appease to Mosh's Gods! Not to mention Ian's ... !
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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moshkito
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Posted: November 10 2011 at 17:07 |
richardh wrote:
I think its all just banter tbh
30+ years ago Anderson accused ELP of just playing the same 20 songs every night.
Carl Palmer's response was 'true but we did at least change the order!'
priceless
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Better yet ... on "Behind the Music" with Metalica ... you have sold out ... for fame! ...
"Yeah! ... Every Night!"
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: November 11 2011 at 05:17 |
wilmon91 wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
wilmon91 wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
More prog musicians should diss prog |
How strange is that. So what is your opinion on prog? If prog is just silly or lame , why do you listen to it?
Maybe music is just a big joke.
How can a prog musician have a passion for music while at the same time have no respect for it? Is it some sort of sickness? "I'm doing silly prog music, I can't help it".
It reminds me of the sort of commercial entertainment artists who are like clowns and see their own music as a sort of joke that has no meaning whatsoever. A swedish artist comes to mind, Markoolio.
So everyone should diss prog. Oh how cool. |
I'm sorry I don't listen to the artists I like because someone on a website or a doosh magazine reviewer has labeled them "prog". I don't come to this website on a daily basis because its progarchives. I come here because the artists people discuss and review is the kind of music I like......not because its prog...my God, that has nothing to do with it.
BTW....that's the basis for the album Thick As A Brick.......you go ahead and call it what you like. Its Rock, Metal, Pop, Prog......whatever floats your boat.
On this forum Jethro Tull is very popular.....so I guess its Pop Music.......but you would diss that label I suppose. |
The idea was to show more disrespect to prog, which means bands who are related to that genre. I found the idea strange. I don't think genres are relevant either, but the point is that every musician should stand for their own music.
And one should be careful in doing an evaluation of a whole genre , it will likely only produce stereotypical and untrue ideas. |
Whose music exactly? Ian Anderson just expressed himself through his music. Who exactly gives listeners or media any right to club bands together and expect them to adhere to these hundreds of thousands of confusing and pointless categories? We do it for convenience and that's ok but it's not a religion onto itself, it's not meant to be taken seriously and to expect eccentric artists not to step on shoes as soft as touch me nots is just a bit too much. And prog rock is certainly not metal where you could say the genre identity transcends music and becomes a whole culture of its own. You can't even accuse Anderson of cashing in on a bandwagon and then laughing at it when it's gone stale because he was one of the pioneers, one of the first movers.
Edited by rogerthat - November 11 2011 at 05:18
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
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Posted: November 11 2011 at 05:21 |
wilmon91 wrote:
toroddfuglesteg wrote:
if you cannot take 5 steps back and see the whole picture + laugh a bit at yourself and find yourself and what you are doing a bit silly, you are in serious trouble. |
Having self distance is a different thing. But slandering ones own work and others is more of a nervous behaviour showing lack of confidence and a need for praise. Like a child who makes a drawing and calling it ugly just so everyone else can say "no it's fine".
Of course self distance and humility are two good personal characteristics. But it doesn't mean that you have to disparage your own work. It's just childish. |
There is no hint of disparagement of his own work in at least that clip. He has denied that Aqualung is a concept album and said TAAB is just a spoof of a concept album and not really a concept album proper. He didn't say that that makes it a terrible album, you can have excellent/amazing spoof, after all. He has poked fun at Yes, ELP etc but it doesn't necessarily follow he is ridiculing himself.
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Cesar Inca
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Posted: November 11 2011 at 07:37 |
It's just that JT was not a consistently essential prog rock band, it's just that JT visited the genre in many albums (from their golde nera) and incorporated lots of prog elements in other albums that were more folk-hard-rock with abundant artsy arrangements.
I remember that Ian said many times that TAAB was NOT a concept album but a piss at the concept of concept album, which is not news at all. APP, War Child, TOTRR were, obviously, concept albums. Minstrel kind of was, too, but mostly, a "how i am feeling now" sort of album. There is a concept of celebration, concern and retorspective on the idea of rural life in teh string of Wood, Horses and Stormwatch albums. Ian is obviously a very conceptual man and a very coceptual artist... but TAAB was jus ta spoof. (Even then, JT made what is perhaps teh best prog rock concept album ever... how genius is that when you make a joke about a thing and by doing that you take that thing to its maximum level?).
In other interviews, he praised GG, so... mostly, this is him making fun of prog, himself and the music business in general. Sense of humor, the same he utilizes in TAAB, Passion Play, interviews, and of course, on stage. This is Ian Anderson, remember?
I found this very funny and very amusing, just like any other guy should find it...
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infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
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Posted: November 11 2011 at 10:44 |
bucka001 wrote:
The Dark Elf wrote:
I suppose if this were 1972, this might have mattered. To someone. I'm not sure who. |
Well, you seem to care. Your own review of this album, from your best rock albums list, states, "And it is very sly: according to Ian Anderson, Thick as a Brick was a
send-up of progressive rock of the time, holding up a cynical mirror to Tull's
pompous rock counterparts (and the band itself)." So, having put that out there for public consumption on your blog, I'm sure you'll agree that it's at least fair game for discussion on a prog forum where we just discuss stuff for fun and to kill time anyway. I'm not sure you've gone through the whole thread (I probably wouldn't have if I joined the party late) but no matter what side of the fence folks are on (i.e. either IA's a jerk for putting down these other bands, or he's just larking about so folks should chill) it's been established that TAAB wasn't a putdown of prog at the time... that's revisionist on IA's part. At any rate, here's an interview with IA from the time (1972, with Circus magazine) in which he discusses the idea behind TAAB. This is him in his own words, at the time, discussing the real intent behind the album (a reaction to critics' reactions to Aqualung, among other things), not how he's rewritten things now, 40 yrs later.
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From that link: "That's why so much of my stage act is really a parody of what a rock
star is supposed to do. I'm just a straightforward bloke, and I'd hate
to have to take the whole thing too solemnly onstage. Unless you're
ready to laugh at yourself, there's the danger of falling into believing
that you're a rock star. And so much of that is just baloney, you know.
I try to remain logical about it and just take it as so much good fun.
I'd like people to see the act humorously in part, the same way I look
at it." I think he pretty much tells you right here that TAAB was not a "serious" concept album. By the way, there were concept albums long before TAAB or Aqualung. Check out The Pretty Things "S.F. Sorrow" album from 1968. Not exactly prog, but certainly proto prog and certainly a concept album. One of my biggest issues with some prog bands is that they do take themselves too seriously. I find many aspects of what 70's prog bands did hilarious in retrospect (see my previous post in this thread). Doesn't mean I don't think the music was also brilliant. I just think you can't take any genre too seriously. There is plenty of over the top stuff in rock music in general that seems quite funny in retrospect.
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wilmon91
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 15 2009
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 698
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Posted: November 11 2011 at 11:32 |
rogerthat wrote:
wilmon91 wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
wilmon91 wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
More prog musicians should diss prog |
How strange is that. So what is your opinion on prog? If prog is just silly or lame , why do you listen to it? Maybe music is just a big joke. How can a prog musician have a passion for music while at the same time have no respect for it? Is it some sort of sickness? "I'm doing silly prog music, I can't help it". It reminds me of the sort of commercial entertainment artists who are like clowns and see their own music as a sort of joke that has no meaning whatsoever. A swedish artist comes to mind, Markoolio. So everyone should diss prog. Oh how cool. |
I'm sorry I don't listen to the artists I like because someone on a website or a doosh magazine reviewer has labeled them "prog". I don't come to this website on a daily basis because its progarchives. I come here because the artists people discuss and review is the kind of music I like......not because its prog...my God, that has nothing to do with it. BTW....that's the basis for the album Thick As A Brick.......you go ahead and call it what you like. Its Rock, Metal, Pop, Prog......whatever floats your boat. On this forum Jethro Tull is very popular.....so I guess its Pop Music.......but you would diss that label I suppose. |
The idea was to show more disrespect to prog, which means bands who are related to that genre. I found the idea strange. I don't think genres are relevant either, but the point is that every musician should stand for their own music. And one should be careful in doing an evaluation of a whole genre , it will likely only produce stereotypical and untrue ideas. |
Whose music exactly? Ian Anderson just expressed himself through his music. Who exactly gives listeners or media any right to club bands together and expect them to adhere to these hundreds of thousands of confusing and pointless categories? We do it for convenience and that's ok but it's not a religion onto itself, it's not meant to be taken seriously and to expect eccentric artists not to step on shoes as soft as touch me nots is just a bit too much. And prog rock is certainly not metal where you could say the genre identity transcends music and becomes a whole culture of its own. You can't even accuse Anderson of cashing in on a bandwagon and then laughing at it when it's gone stale because he was one of the pioneers, one of the first movers. |
See below.
rogerthat wrote:
wilmon91 wrote:
toroddfuglesteg wrote:
if you cannot take 5 steps back and see the whole picture + laugh a bit at yourself and find yourself and what you are doing a bit silly, you are in serious trouble. |
Having self distance is a different thing. But slandering ones own work and others is more of a nervous behaviour showing lack of confidence and a need for praise. Like a child who makes a drawing and calling it ugly just so everyone else can say "no it's fine". Of course self distance and humility are two good personal characteristics. But it doesn't mean that you have to disparage your own work. It's just childish. |
There is no hint of disparagement of his own work in at least that clip. He has denied that Aqualung is a concept album and said TAAB is just a spoof of a concept album and not really a concept album proper. He didn't say that that makes it a terrible album, you can have excellent/amazing spoof, after all. He has poked fun at Yes, ELP etc but it doesn't necessarily follow he is ridiculing himself. |
Well, it's a very confused thread so maybe we should define what we are talking about first . What Anderssons said isn't the main focus (my version and interpretation of it is on page 3).
My focus shifted to the reactions in this thread, and the obviously differing experiences of what was funny. No one have misunderstood the fact that he was joking. Secondly, to me saying that Genesis, ELP etc had their heads up their arses is funny only in it's spontaneity and vulgarity, but there is no actual point being made, no actual truth being uncovered.
So the level of fun can be discussed. To say that "he is right", that it was extremely funny and to say "every prog artist should diss prog" ....well, then it becomes confusing.
It's just strange to have a wish for artists to talk about prog bands in a ridiculing way, as if it automatically would be funny.
Why is it fun to ridicule prog? It has already been done a lot through the years in the media. No one could joke about it in a new way , everything has been said.
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bucka001
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 16 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 864
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Posted: November 11 2011 at 11:50 |
infandous wrote:
bucka001 wrote:
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From that link: "That's why so much of my stage act is really a parody of what a rock star is supposed to do. I'm just a straightforward bloke, and I'd hate to have to take the whole thing too solemnly onstage. Unless you're ready to laugh at yourself, there's the danger of falling into believing that you're a rock star. And so much of that is just baloney, you know. I try to remain logical about it and just take it as so much good fun. I'd like people to see the act humorously in part, the same way I look at it."
I think he pretty much tells you right here that TAAB was not a "serious" concept album.
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What he didn't say at the time was that it was a spoof on other bands (which he does do now).
At any rate, he wasn't talking about TAAB when he uttered the quote you put forth. He was reacting to a fan saying this: "Ian Anderson has to be the greatest genius ever to live on the face of the earth... Let this man lead us out of our present darkness and into the light of a new world."
infandous wrote:
By the way, there were concept albums long before TAAB or Aqualung. Check out The Pretty Things "S.F. Sorrow" album from 1968. Not exactly prog, but certainly proto prog and certainly a concept album.
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But the groups that IA takes potshots at aren't The Pretty Things or The Who (Tommy was also a concept album that pre-dated TAAB). It's Genesis, Gentle Giant and Yes. None of them had concept albums out when TAAB was made. He may have been just having a laugh (and I'm certainly not offended by him making fun of those bands) but his revisionist history (even if it's done with tongue firmly planted in cheek) has others taking it at face value. Witness The Dark Elf's review, where (through no fault of his own) he mentions that TAAB was a reaction to pompous prog bands of the time. 'Prog' didn't even exist as a genre yet (folks weren't thinking in those terms in '71) and the pompous concept album stuff (the stuff that has been held up by detractors of the genre) didn't come until two or three years later (The Lamb, Topographic, Works, etc).
Edited by bucka001 - November 11 2011 at 11:52
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jc
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infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2447
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Posted: November 11 2011 at 12:37 |
bucka001 wrote:
infandous wrote:
bucka001 wrote:
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From that link: "That's why so much of my stage act is really a parody of what a rock star is supposed to do. I'm just a straightforward bloke, and I'd hate to have to take the whole thing too solemnly onstage. Unless you're ready to laugh at yourself, there's the danger of falling into believing that you're a rock star. And so much of that is just baloney, you know. I try to remain logical about it and just take it as so much good fun. I'd like people to see the act humorously in part, the same way I look at it."
I think he pretty much tells you right here that TAAB was not a "serious" concept album.
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What he didn't say at the time was that it was a spoof on other bands (which he does do now).
At any rate, he wasn't talking about TAAB when he uttered the quote you put forth. He was reacting to a fan saying this: "Ian Anderson has to be the greatest genius ever to live on the face of the earth... Let this man lead us out of our present darkness and into the light of a new world."
infandous wrote:
By the way, there were concept albums long before TAAB or Aqualung. Check out The Pretty Things "S.F. Sorrow" album from 1968. Not exactly prog, but certainly proto prog and certainly a concept album.
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But the groups that IA takes potshots at aren't The Pretty Things or The Who (Tommy was also a concept album that pre-dated TAAB). It's Genesis, Gentle Giant and Yes. None of them had concept albums out when TAAB was made. He may have been just having a laugh (and I'm certainly not offended by him making fun of those bands) but his revisionist history (even if it's done with tongue firmly planted in cheek) has others taking it at face value. Witness The Dark Elf's review, where (through no fault of his own) he mentions that TAAB was a reaction to pompous prog bands of the time. 'Prog' didn't even exist as a genre yet (folks weren't thinking in those terms in '71) and the pompous concept album stuff (the stuff that has been held up by detractors of the genre) didn't come until two or three years later (The Lamb, Topographic, Works, etc).
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Well, the part about the other bands is true. He didn't mention them back then, but he certainly was doing a piss take on the concept album and on the fact that critics had called Aqualung a concept album. There are other interviews from that time that verify this. The rest is just splitting hairs because the people who get the joke (us prog fans) find it funny, and the people who don't get the joke were not going to explore those bands whether Ian make his humorous comments or not.
Edited by infandous - November 11 2011 at 12:38
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