Progarchives.com has always (since 2002) relied on banners ads to cover web hosting fees and all. Please consider supporting us by giving monthly PayPal donations and help keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
Posted: November 08 2011 at 12:48
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
I hate arriving late at parties ... anyways, here's some off the cuff comments:
- What kind of abortions are we talking about? It makes a huge difference.
Abortion in all cases, at least that's what they're suggesting now in Argentina.
- Is abortion like murder? Then why are most people who are against it not demanding that it's treated like murder by the justice system.
That's actually an argument they use: "Abortion = Murder".
- At which point does a unborn life become a human being? At the point of conception - at 150 cells - at 6 months?
My opinion: Every woman should have the right to chose to have an early term abortion (e.g. up to nine weeks into the pregnancy). More important is education about (and access to means of) birth control instead of religiously motivated crap like abstinence only education, by which the need to choose can usually be avoided in the first place.
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: November 08 2011 at 13:02
^ Well, if abortion was equal to murder, people should be sentenced to life in prison or worse for abortion, but they aren't - even in countries where abortion is not legal.
"Abortion in all cases" - should definitely not be legal. Like I said before, there's definitely a cut-off point as far as the duration of the pregnancy is concerned, unless you want to claim that at the point of conception the one fused cell is already a human life - which doesn't make any sense for a number of reasons, ranging from medical to philosophical to religious. My opinion is that up to this cut-off point the woman should be free to choose, and from that point on abortions should only be possible for medical reasons. And by that I don't mean concerns about getting a handicapped child or something like that - I'm talking about serious risks for the mother. A woman must not be forced to deliver a baby if it puts her life at risk.
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
Posted: November 08 2011 at 14:05
People aren't asking that it be treated like murder because even those who believe in it acknowledge that it much more gray than something such as homicide.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
Posted: November 08 2011 at 14:41
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
People aren't asking that it be treated like murder because even those who believe in it acknowledge that it much more gray than something such as homicide.
Not everybody, but believe me, here and now (Argentina) those that are against abortion being legalized, use, among other, the argument of "Abortion = Murder".
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
Posted: November 08 2011 at 14:45
Well, you're back to the point at trying to legislate the exact point at where you are murdering or just terminating a undeveloped life. I've just seen the attempts to do so after Roe v. Wade and in the end I think it's one issue where the mother is entitled to the benefit of the doubt and usually best to have her have to play God than someone else.
Edited by Slartibartfast - November 08 2011 at 14:46
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
Posted: November 08 2011 at 14:50
^not sure who you were referring to, I have a "neutral" position, I'm not in favour or against since I believe I'm not really well informed about the subject, one of the reasons why I made the thread.
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
Posted: November 08 2011 at 14:53
The Quiet One wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
People aren't asking that it be treated like murder because even those who believe in it acknowledge that it much more gray than something such as homicide.
Not everybody, but believe me, here and now (Argentina) those that are against abortion being legalized, use, among other, the argument of "Abortion = Murder".
Well obviously not everybody. I'm aware of such people. In some cases, I would agree that is the case.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
Posted: November 08 2011 at 15:11
The Quiet One wrote:
^not sure who you were referring to, I have a "neutral" position, I'm not in favour or against since I believe I'm not really well informed about the subject, one of the reasons why I made the thread.
Fair enough, I'm old enough and the issue has been out there long enough over the course of my life to have pretty much made up my mind, which is to say abortion can be murder but it isn't always.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Posted: November 08 2011 at 15:21
If abortion was treated like regular murder, then they would come up with this stupid charges like "conspiracy to commit abortion" so that no matter what happens people get jailed and so that they can throw even more people in (eventually they'd say that if the grandmother suggested the doctor she is part of the conspiracy). Government doesn't need more excuses to jail and control people.
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Posted: November 08 2011 at 16:21
TheMasterMofo wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
^ in other words government when it does things you agree with-- seems all sides want that
That's a pretty stupid way to take that - no offense - because as you said, it applies to anyone but anarchists.
I certainly don't want anarchy with no laws at all. I want the
government to pretty much leave me and everyone else alone, but in cases
of true crime like murder, robbery, etc. the government does and should
have a role.
Who told you you need government to have laws? Have you ever read about anarcho-capitalism? Do you really think you need government to have a society without murder on the street?
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
Posted: November 08 2011 at 16:26
The T wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
The T wrote:
If abortion was treated like regular murder, then they would come up with this stupid charges like "conspiracy to commit abortion"
What makes you so certain they aren't working on it?
Nothing, sadly. Government can come up with anything.
Hey, you're mixing up the government with lawyers, oh wait a second. Well, sometimes we have a government of by and for the people. These days corporations roam the earth and reign supreme. Try not to get in the way. They will crush you if they can. Hell, they'll crush you for the sheer sport or if there's a profit to be made...
Edited by Slartibartfast - November 08 2011 at 16:26
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Joined: May 20 2009
Location: Georgia
Status: Offline
Points: 220
Posted: November 08 2011 at 20:00
Atavachron wrote:
A stupid way to take exactly what you said? Sounds like you're mad at yourself for saying it in public.
Not really. It would be like me saying "You agree with what you agree
with and that's why you agree with it." It's a John Madden-esque
statement...
And that's what that's all about.
The T wrote:
Who told you you need government to have laws? Have you
ever read about anarcho-capitalism? Do you really think you need
government to have a society without murder on the street?
I don't need to be "told" anything. I don't really pay attention to anything anarchy-related. I would MUCH
prefer anarchy to the way the government currently tells me what to do,
but ideally I think some government is needed, especially with the way
society works these days. Of course if everyone had guns, murder would certainly ebb.
Joined: October 27 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 4625
Posted: November 09 2011 at 08:54
TheMasterMofo wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
A stupid way to take exactly what you said? Sounds like you're mad at yourself for saying it in public.
Not really. It would be like me saying "You agree with what you agree
with and that's why you agree with it." It's a John Madden-esque
statement...
And that's what that's all about.
The T wrote:
Who told you you need government to have laws? Have you
ever read about anarcho-capitalism? Do you really think you need
government to have a society without murder on the street?
I don't need to be "told" anything. I don't really pay attention to anything anarchy-related. I would MUCH
prefer anarchy to the way the government currently tells me what to do,
but ideally I think some government is needed, especially with the way
society works these days. Of course if everyone had guns, murder would certainly ebb.
I'm not a 100% sure about the if everyone had guns thing. I'm a big 2nd amendment believer, don't get me wrong, but i've seen some bar-fights that prolly would have become killing sprees if the parties had been armed.
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
Posted: November 09 2011 at 11:11
The T wrote:
TheMasterMofo wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
^ in other words government when it does things you agree with-- seems all sides want that
That's a pretty stupid way to take that - no offense - because as you said, it applies to anyone but anarchists.
I certainly don't want anarchy with no laws at all. I want the
government to pretty much leave me and everyone else alone, but in cases
of true crime like murder, robbery, etc. the government does and should
have a role.
Who told you you need government to have laws? Have you ever read about anarcho-capitalism? Do you really think you need government to have a society without murder on the street?
You need laws, and you need people who enforce them. Libertarians continue to fail to explain how in a libertarian society a common set of laws can be enforced without something like a government.
Another thing (which I sympathize with) is reducing the areas where the government is currently involved ... for example, drugs should be legalized. And early term abortions.
Joined: October 27 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 4625
Posted: November 09 2011 at 12:51
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
The T wrote:
TheMasterMofo wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
^ in other words government when it does things you agree with-- seems all sides want that
That's a pretty stupid way to take that - no offense - because as you said, it applies to anyone but anarchists.
I certainly don't want anarchy with no laws at all. I want the
government to pretty much leave me and everyone else alone, but in cases
of true crime like murder, robbery, etc. the government does and should
have a role.
Who told you you need government to have laws? Have you ever read about anarcho-capitalism? Do you really think you need government to have a society without murder on the street?
You need laws, and you need people who enforce them. Libertarians continue to fail to explain how in a libertarian society a common set of laws can be enforced without something like a government.
Another thing (which I sympathize with) is reducing the areas where the government is currently involved ... for example, drugs should be legalized. And early term abortions.
Not all libertarians are completely anarchist. Just like not all liberals are pot-smoking hippies that chain themselves to trees.
I subscribe to an Einsteinian view. "Make everything as simple as possible, but not any simpler."
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
Posted: November 09 2011 at 13:25
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
The T wrote:
TheMasterMofo wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
^ in other words government when it does things you agree with-- seems all sides want that
That's a pretty stupid way to take that - no offense - because as you said, it applies to anyone but anarchists.
I certainly don't want anarchy with no laws at all. I want the
government to pretty much leave me and everyone else alone, but in cases
of true crime like murder, robbery, etc. the government does and should
have a role.
Who told you you need government to have laws? Have you ever read about anarcho-capitalism? Do you really think you need government to have a society without murder on the street?
You need laws, and you need people who enforce them. Libertarians continue to fail to explain how in a libertarian society a common set of laws can be enforced without something like a government.
Another thing (which I sympathize with) is reducing the areas where the government is currently involved ... for example, drugs should be legalized. And early term abortions.
You just appear on this kind of threads every now and then and miss the conversations where no-government societies with private laws have been discussed.
And you saying NOT POSSIBLE before even entertaining the idea of a doubt is a lot like religious people blindly following things without questioning anything...
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
This page was generated in 0.199 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
Abortion: Legal or Illegal
Topic Options
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
Well, sometimes we have a government of by and for the people. These days corporations roam the earth and reign supreme. Try not to get in the way. They will crush you if they can. Hell, they'll crush you for the sheer sport or if there's a profit to be made...
