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Topic ClosedRobert Plant - Prog?
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Poll Question: Where does this artist fit in the Prog spectrum?
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2 [3.33%]
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12 [20.00%]
37 [61.67%]
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2011 at 20:28
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

BTW: I don't believe DoFP is Prog, in my opinion is only Pop with an orchestral intro and coda, something I always said
I know (and I have said the same myself), but that was kind of the point I was making.
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2011 at 20:29
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

BTW: I don't believe DoFP is Prog, in my opinion is only Pop with an orchestral intro and coda, something I always said
I know (and I have said the same myself), but that was kind of the point I was making.

What's a DOFP?
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2011 at 20:30
Days of Future Passed, mentioned by Dean in his post

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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2011 at 20:35
Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 

Yes and Genesis have clear passages of Prog ock and passages of almost pure Classical, as well as Tull has Blues, Rock and Folk sections that people can clearly distinguish.


Can you give an example of this as I don't understand.

Take Close to the Edge, you can clearly separate the Prog Rock sections from the Baroque additions made in Wakeman's solos and softer sections sung by Anderson, something similar happens with Watcher of the Skies.

You take a Thrash Metal band and a Tech/Extreme PM band and most of them sound almost exactly to me, I can't find what makes them Progand what not.

Of course in some the Prog component is evident.

Just to start.
            
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Points: 32995 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2011 at 20:38
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Snow Dog Snow Dog wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

 

Yes and Genesis have clear passages of Prog ock and passages of almost pure Classical, as well as Tull has Blues, Rock and Folk sections that people can clearly distinguish.


Can you give an example of this as I don't understand.

Take Close to the Edge, you can clearly separate the Prog Rock sections from the Baroque additions made in Wakeman's solos and softer sections sung by Anderson, something similar happens with Watcher of the Skies.

You take a Thrash Metal band and a Tech/Extreme PM band and most of them sound almost exactly to me, I can't find what makes them Progand what not.

Of course in some the Prog component is evident.

Just to start.



No I don't get it. It all sounds like Prog rock to me. I can hear clasical influences of course.
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2011 at 20:41
But the central point was not that, the central point is that you can notice the Prog elements, in some bands lñtely added (Not referring to Plant, because I believe he has certain relation) you can listen and listen and listen and don't find a single reason to justify their presence in Prog Archives.

Those are the bands I believe are dangerous for our credibility.

Iván

BTW Snow: Of course we see music in different ways, when i listen Kansas, I try to identify the Hard Rock, the Country and the Symphonic sections, I thought more people did this...But again, it's my opinion and my perspective.


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 05 2011 at 20:43
            
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Points: 11415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2011 at 23:09
I'm struggling to follow what seems like a shapeshifter's logic here Ivan. Maybe the following analogy might better explain what I mean that Prog, like every other genre is a compound, hybrid one:

Ethanol (a.k.a. pure alcohol) = sound
Booze = organised sound sold as Music
Mixer(a soft drink used to enhance/sweeten or dilute booze) = Rock and/or other popular music elements
Intoxication = the pleasure that music brings us
Red wine, white wine, beer, vodka, rum, whisky, bourbon, gin, lager and cider are all types of booze that contain alcohol of differing strengths and a myriad of other ingredients to give them their unique flavours = branded styles of music bought by consumers

So Prog = Booze + Mixer
If Prog = Pure Ethanol (it's your round Ivan and I'll stick with my shandy thanksWink)
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Points: 19535 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2011 at 00:00
Probably I'm not capable of explaining what I think in a foreign language.

But focus in the central points

  1. Adding non Prog bands, is IMO (and I'm sure of the vast majority of active and voting  members) making us loose credibility and killing the genre, if Prog survived until now, is because it kept a safe distance from mainstream.
  2. We are adding Classic Rock from the 70's, adult contemporary musicians, Indie, alternative, etc, because a few love to see their favorite band here, as if Prog was an award or a certificate of quality.
  3. Adding non Prog bands will make Prog Archives loose members instead of gaining more members.
Forget about my obsession for over analyzing music, that's for me and very hardly anybody will understand it, my only point, is that each day we are closer to Allmusic than to Prog Archives.

Iván

PS: I think I found the right words.

In most Symphonic, Folk, Eclectic, Avant, etc I can find a Prog component that I can't find n most Metal bands (Especially Tech Extreme Prog Metal)

Probably Neo is unpopular (quite unfair IMO), because people see it as diluted Prog and Tech Extreme Prog Metal also, because it's seen as mainly Metal with very little Prog or none in some cases, I'm sure that for most people here, any Thrash, Death or Black  Metal band (that's what I referred as mainstream Metal, but if the term is not appropriate call it non Prog Metal) sounds exactly the same as the ones that are considered as Tech Prog Metal






Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - November 06 2011 at 00:31
            
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2011 at 03:19
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:


Take Close to the Edge, you can clearly separate the Prog Rock sections from the Baroque additions made in Wakeman's solos and softer sections sung by Anderson, something similar happens with Watcher of the Skies.

You take a Thrash Metal band and a Tech/Extreme PM band and most of them sound almost exactly to me, I can't find what makes them Progand what not.

Of course in some the Prog component is evident.

Just to start.


 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

BTW Snow: Of course we see music in different ways, when i listen Kansas, I try to identify the Hard Rock, the Country and the Symphonic sections, I thought more people did this...But again, it's my opinion and my perspective.
 
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Forget about my obsession for over analyzing music, that's for me and very hardly anybody will understand it,
 
Oh. This I find concerning. There is no formula for Prog and over-reliance on the analysis of music in this way is not going to identify "Prog" from "Not Prog", it may be a useful tool for identifying the broad subcategory perhaps, but even that is fraught with problems. If you apply this methodology to most of the bands within the PA then few of the fit in the subgenre they have been placed - Genesis would not be in Symphonic, Tull would not be in Folk, Floyd would not be in Psyche, Gong would not be in Canterbury, Opeth would not be in Tech/Extreme and Manzanera would not be in Prog Related (those are just the big names - imagine that extrapolated to all the lesser known acts). It is also a problematic approach because the divides between genres and styles of music are not clear and well defined, nor are they universally accepted, so not only do you have the vagaries of the band itself, but also the subgenres you are trying to put them in.
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Points: 20248 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2011 at 03:42
Originally posted by Mellotron Storm Mellotron Storm wrote:

Your comment makes sense to me Ivan about the people who stay being the ones who are already into Prog. I used to think that maybe with ZEPPELIN,SABBATH and MAIDEN being on here that it would possibly attract new fans to Prog if they happened upon this site but i now i think that's a long shot at best and it's certainly not a reason to add an artist because they might draw new fans to Prog.I'm sure artists like Amos and Bjork weren't added because of this but some would use that reasoning as an excuse for them being here.
Completely agree!!Clap
 
 
Well I won't delve too deep into this subject, because I was one of the main disputers of the later inclusions you lmention (which shouldn't be included on full-blown prog genre, IMHO... Prog-related at best...)


Although I even agreed back then for Doors (as compensation for Erik Neuteboom),  Zep, Sab (I was asked by M@X  and Bob (EL) to include them) and Maiden, it was indeed because there were chances to attract non-prog fans into prog....
But I don't think it's working, at all ... and I'm not in favor of including Judas Priest either (despite Sad Wings Of Destiny)
 
 
However, what I'm sure has been working is that these Bjork and Tori Amos have turned on a few ProgArchivesheads onto these artistes.... but that's the reverse effect to the original intent...
 
 
 
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2011 at 03:54
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

But focus in the central points

  1. Adding non Prog bands, is IMO (and I'm sure of the vast majority of active and voting  members) making us loose credibility and killing the genre, if Prog survived until now, is because it kept a safe distance from mainstream.
  2. We are adding Classic Rock from the 70's, adult contemporary musicians, Indie, alternative, etc, because a few love to see their favorite band here, as if Prog was an award or a certificate of quality.
  3. Adding non Prog bands will make Prog Archives loose members instead of gaining more members.
::snip:: my only point, is that each day we are closer to Allmusic than to Prog Archives.
This is opinion (née feeling) presented as fact.
 
The assumption that there ever was a safe distance between Prog and Mainstream is a flawed construct and only really applicable in the wilderness years from the mid 80s through to the early 00s. Throughout the 70s Prog and non-Prog sat comfortably side by side, were on the same label rosta and frequently shared the same bill on tours and festivals. Any demarcation between them is a later invention.
 
It is also extremely insulting to those team members who evaluated and added those artists that you deem to be non-Prog - you cannot say that you "respect the decision of other teams." and then accuse them of adding their favourite bands.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2011 at 04:00
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

 
Originally posted by Mellotron Storm Mellotron Storm wrote:

.I'm sure artists like Amos and Bjork weren't added because of this but some would use that reasoning as an excuse for them being here.
 
However, what I'm sure has been working is that these Bjork and Tori Amos have turned on a few ProgArchivesheads onto these artistes.... but that's the reverse effect to the original intent...
While I had left the team by the time these artists were added, I can confidently say that neither of them were added with the intention of attracting new fans to Prog, but because the Xover Team believe that they are Crossover Prog artists.
 
 
/edit: similarly I have never voted a band for Prog Related or Proto Prog in the hope that they would attract more fans to Prog - if I don't believe they belongs in those categories I vote "No". If their inclusion does attract one more fan then that is a side effect, not the raison d'être


Edited by Dean - November 06 2011 at 04:24
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Points: 20248 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2011 at 04:24
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

 
Originally posted by Mellotron Storm Mellotron Storm wrote:

.I'm sure artists like Amos and Bjork weren't added because of this but some would use that reasoning as an excuse for them being here.
 
However, what I'm sure has been working is that these Bjork and Tori Amos have turned on a few ProgArchivesheads onto these artistes.... but that's the reverse effect to the original intent...
While I had left the team by the time these artists were added, I can confidently say that neither of them were added with the intention of attracting new fans to Prog, but because the Xover Team believe that they are Crossover Prog artists.
 
yeah, true enough...
let's just stay above the moral melee
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Points: 166178 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2011 at 07:01
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

But focus in the central points

  1. Adding non Prog bands, is IMO (and I'm sure of the vast majority of active and voting  members) making us loose credibility and killing the genre, if Prog survived until now, is because it kept a safe distance from mainstream.
  2. We are adding Classic Rock from the 70's, adult contemporary musicians, Indie, alternative, etc, because a few love to see their favorite band here, as if Prog was an award or a certificate of quality.
  3. Adding non Prog bands will make Prog Archives loose members instead of gaining more members.
::snip:: my only point, is that each day we are closer to Allmusic than to Prog Archives.
This is opinion (née feeling) presented as fact.
 
The assumption that there ever was a safe distance between Prog and Mainstream is a flawed construct and only really applicable in the wilderness years from the mid 80s through to the early 00s. Throughout the 70s Prog and non-Prog sat comfortably side by side, were on the same label rosta and frequently shared the same bill on tours and festivals. Any demarcation between them is a later invention.
 
 
I don't know if I'm making a point here (esp one that hasn't been made already) so feel free to ignore this post.
 
I don't know if that is really opinoin though. Allmusic has all types of music. PA is becoming increasing inclusive (esp in certain subs) bringing in many artists that are on the fringe of prog if not even farther away. Heck, the whole of PR and PP are accepted as not being fully prog. You can argue whether this inclusiveness is a postivie or a negative for the site but I think it's really hard to argue that PA is not moving closer to allmusic.
 

As for the other point, I wasn't alive in th 70s so I have no first hand perspective on the issue. But from what I can tell the atmosphere for rock music was alot differnt in the 70s, esp the early 70s. There did seem to be alot less boundaries and things were fairly new so there was alot more new to do. Labels seemed to open to all those things as well, so it seems easier to put a big name prog band next to one that isn't even close to prog. But, just because of that I don't think that makes all of the 70s to be eligable to be included on PA. But, this is pure opinion and for all I know an uninformed one.
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Points: 14122 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2011 at 07:16
Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

But focus in the central points

  1. Adding non Prog bands, is IMO (and I'm sure of the vast majority of active and voting  members) making us loose credibility and killing the genre, if Prog survived until now, is because it kept a safe distance from mainstream.
  2. We are adding Classic Rock from the 70's, adult contemporary musicians, Indie, alternative, etc, because a few love to see their favorite band here, as if Prog was an award or a certificate of quality.
  3. Adding non Prog bands will make Prog Archives loose members instead of gaining more members.
::snip:: my only point, is that each day we are closer to Allmusic than to Prog Archives.
This is opinion (née feeling) presented as fact.
 
The assumption that there ever was a safe distance between Prog and Mainstream is a flawed construct and only really applicable in the wilderness years from the mid 80s through to the early 00s. Throughout the 70s Prog and non-Prog sat comfortably side by side, were on the same label rosta and frequently shared the same bill on tours and festivals. Any demarcation between them is a later invention.
 
 
I don't know if I'm making a point here (esp one that hasn't been made already) so feel free to ignore this post.
 
I don't know if that is really opinoin though. Allmusic has all types of music. PA is becoming increasing inclusive (esp in certain subs) bringing in many artists that are on the fringe of prog if not even farther away. Heck, the whole of PR and PP are accepted as not being fully prog. You can argue whether this inclusiveness is a postivie or a negative for the site but I think it's really hard to argue that PA is not moving closer to allmusic.
 

As for the other point, I wasn't alive in th 70s so I have no first hand perspective on the issue. But from what I can tell the atmosphere for rock music was alot differnt in the 70s, esp the early 70s. There did seem to be alot less boundaries and things were fairly new so there was alot more new to do. Labels seemed to open to all those things as well, so it seems easier to put a big name prog band next to one that isn't even close to prog. But, just because of that I don't think that makes all of the 70s to be eligable to be included on PA. But, this is pure opinion and for all I know an uninformed one.
As one who was nearby in the 70s I can subscribe what Dean says. I was a fan of Pink Floyd, Elp and Renaissance without having ever heard the word "prog". On the othe hand I had a clear distinction in my mind between "music that I like" and "mainstream". Later I have discovered that the first was called "prog" (not only, but almost) so Ivan is not completely wrong.

Spending time in deciding what can be on PA and what can't makes the difference so I'm with Ivan, even though I'm one who has seen more than half of my suggestions rejected by the teams.
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Points: 4515 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2011 at 07:29

I thought, wow 6 pages about Plant, how on earth!?

But it looks like it's been at least a two pages argument between "prog purism" against "prog as a living musical form that keeps evolving and adapting to its surroundings".

purism is a dead end street, if PA was about that I wouldn't be here.




Edited by Bonnek - November 06 2011 at 07:30
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Points: 7272 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2011 at 08:04
Justin Bieber - Prog?
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2011 at 08:07
Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

Justin Bieber - Prog?


Why not?  Wink
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2011 at 08:45
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

As one who was nearby in the 70s I can subscribe what Dean says. I was a fan of Pink Floyd, Elp and Renaissance without having ever heard the word "prog". On the othe hand I had a clear distinction in my mind between "music that I like" and "mainstream". Later I have discovered that the first was called "prog" (not only, but almost) so Ivan is not completely wrong.

Spending time in deciding what can be on PA and what can't makes the difference so I'm with Ivan, even though I'm one who has seen more than half of my suggestions rejected by the teams.
I would go as far as to question whether all the "music that you liked" was actually Prog (and your last statement suggests it perhaps wasn't) and draw a distinction between music that you didn't like and "mainstream". Especially with the likes of Pink Floyd, ELP, Genesis, Oldfiled, The Moody Blues, Yes, Tull and even Renaissance (circa 'Song For All Seasons') and to some extent Tangerine Dream (by way of film soundtracks) having what can be regarded as mainstream success (as measured by "popularity", chart position and general populace recognition) in the latter part of the 70s.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2011 at 08:51
Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:


As for the other point, I wasn't alive in th 70s so I have no first hand perspective on the issue. But from what I can tell the atmosphere for rock music was alot differnt in the 70s, esp the early 70s. There did seem to be alot less boundaries and things were fairly new so there was alot more new to do. Labels seemed to open to all those things as well, so it seems easier to put a big name prog band next to one that isn't even close to prog. But, just because of that I don't think that makes all of the 70s to be eligable to be included on PA. But, this is pure opinion and for all I know an uninformed one.
All of the 70s artists are not eligible for inclusion, even if they are regarded as "underground" (the 70s equivalent of "alternative" and "indie"). Certainly no one of any sanity would dream of including every artist that was signed to Vertigo, Virgin, Atlantic, Island, Harvest, Deram, Transatlantic, Buddha or Charisma even though a major portion of their rostas were Prog artists at the time.
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