"Occupy" Protests

^You started TheDoctor when you said that we are defending our wealth or something like that. You started by implying things that aren't there and painting us with a brush designed to make us look like selfish greedy b*****ds. So don't come to me preaching about not attacking individuals. You are a socialist (which for me is not that far from degrading into a communist) and I can very gladly live with it. And you will post your ideas and I will post mine. Deal with it. We disagree.

The Doctor wrote: I think that is all I will say on the matter

You apparently thought wrong.

Equality 7-2521 wrote: akamaisondufromage wrote: The T wrote: Henry Plainview wrote:   The T wrote: Having a job is not a right. It depends on someone hading something to you even if you are unskilled or just plain lazy. The only way to eliminate unemployment is to free the market... Or maybe have everybody working for the government. Eliminate? Do you honestly believe you could have 0% unemployment in Libertopia, or that that would even be a good thing?   akamaisondufromage wrote: What proof is there that the 'Free Market' will find us all employed?  Not doing too well so far oh god 1. Yes I shouldn't have said eliminate. There will ALWAYS be unemployment. But reduce it, it certainly will. 2. We don't have a free market right now. Not even close.   Yes there will always be unemployment whatever system.     2)  No but its closer to that than any other system. And its getting worse. I suppose libertarians would say this is some kind of Communism I would say it's fascism. By getting worse, I really hope you don't mean we're getting close to a free market. Anyway, it being close really has nothing to do with the argument. You're assuming some kind of nice uniform continuity of the economy as a function of "freeness". As a crude analogy, suppose we have an argument about the best way to cure the problem of people being unable to swim. You propose that we buy everyone a life vest and require them to wear it. The swimming problem is solved. I say that people left to their own devices will naturally learn how to swim and this will be more efficient of a method. Suppose we chose my method but in addition you chain everyone's legs and arms together. Then a flood comes and we have massive amounts of people unable to swim and drowning. "See" you shout, "people left to their own devices won't learn how to swim!" "But no!", say I, "This wasn't the system I proposed!" You retort, "But it's the closest we've ever come to the system!" The logic sounds good until you actually think about it. You can't disable fundamental parts of a system and expect it to still function logically.  In addition, I would say we are in no way close to being what I would consider capitalist.

 

akamaisondufromage wrote: The T wrote: Henry Plainview wrote:   The T wrote: Having a job is not a right. It depends on someone hading something to you even if you are unskilled or just plain lazy. The only way to eliminate unemployment is to free the market... Or maybe have everybody working for the government. Eliminate? Do you honestly believe you could have 0% unemployment in Libertopia, or that that would even be a good thing?   akamaisondufromage wrote: What proof is there that the 'Free Market' will find us all employed?  Not doing too well so far oh god 1. Yes I shouldn't have said eliminate. There will ALWAYS be unemployment. But reduce it, it certainly will. 2. We don't have a free market right now. Not even close.   Yes there will always be unemployment whatever system.     2)  No but its closer to that than any other system. And its getting worse. I suppose libertarians would say this is some kind of Communism

I would say it's fascism. By getting worse, I really hope you don't mean we're getting close to a free market.

Anyway, it being close really has nothing to do with the argument. You're assuming some kind of nice uniform continuity of the economy as a function of "freeness".

As a crude analogy, suppose we have an argument about the best way to cure the problem of people being unable to swim. You propose that we buy everyone a life vest and require them to wear it. The swimming problem is solved. I say that people left to their own devices will naturally learn how to swim and this will be more efficient of a method.

Suppose we chose my method but in addition you chain everyone's legs and arms together. Then a flood comes and we have massive amounts of people unable to swim and drowning. "See" you shout, "people left to their own devices won't learn how to swim!"

"But no!", say I, "This wasn't the system I proposed!"

You retort, "But it's the closest we've ever come to the system!"

The logic sounds good until you actually think about it. You can't disable fundamental parts of a system and expect it to still function logically. 

In addition, I would say we are in no way close to being what I would consider capitalist.


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - October 19 2011 at 15:53

akamaisondufromage wrote: The T wrote: Henry Plainview wrote:   The T wrote: Having a job is not a right. It depends on someone hading something to you even if you are unskilled or just plain lazy. The only way to eliminate unemployment is to free the market... Or maybe have everybody working for the government. Eliminate? Do you honestly believe you could have 0% unemployment in Libertopia, or that that would even be a good thing?   akamaisondufromage wrote: What proof is there that the 'Free Market' will find us all employed?  Not doing too well so far oh god 1. Yes I shouldn't have said eliminate. There will ALWAYS be unemployment. But reduce it, it certainly will. 2. We don't have a free market right now. Not even close.   Yes there will always be unemployment whatever system.     2)  No but its closer to that than any other system. And its getting worse. I suppose libertarians would say this is some kind of Communism

It's quite the farthest from a free market it has been in here.

But no, it's no communism. That's what TheDoctor wants, but we are not there... yet.

The T wrote: Henry Plainview wrote:   The T wrote: Having a job is not a right. It depends on someone hading something to you even if you are unskilled or just plain lazy. The only way to eliminate unemployment is to free the market... Or maybe have everybody working for the government. Eliminate? Do you honestly believe you could have 0% unemployment in Libertopia, or that that would even be a good thing?   akamaisondufromage wrote: What proof is there that the 'Free Market' will find us all employed?  Not doing too well so far oh god 1. Yes I shouldn't have said eliminate. There will ALWAYS be unemployment. But reduce it, it certainly will. 2. We don't have a free market right now. Not even close.

 

akamaisondufromage wrote: ^ Generalisations   What proof is there that the 'Free Market' will find us all employed?  Not doing too well so far

Oh, but in libertarian paradise, people are free to starve.  Free to go homeless.  Free to die without health insurance.  And on the flip side, free to underpay their employees or free to ship jobs overseas so that a very few can get stinking, filthy rich.  The goal of libertarianism is not full employment, but rather maximized profit for the wealthy aristocracy.  Social darwinism at its finest.  The caves are beckoning us back. 

^ Generalisations

^ The govt has good benefits......

The T wrote: TheDoctor, I make about 12 bucks an hour. My mom is 60 and still works. Her husband is 73 and still works. We are not rich. The one making false assumptions is you. The one painting whole lots of people with the same brush is you. That's why I fear the likes of you: you don't see people as individuals but as belonging to a group, and they only have value because they belong to a group. You are dangerous. In order to save the world, or your idea of the world, you would 't stop at anything. You are scary.

Awesome.