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The T 
Special Collaborator
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493
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 Posted: October 18 2011 at 09:53 |
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Yes. If you criminalize corporate funding of politics, eventually they'll find a way to interpret the law or to create exceptions which of course will only apply to a small percentage of corporations, which would be even more powerful than they are now.
In my country there is a say: "creada la ley, creada la trampa". It would translate somewhat as "a law is passed, a way to break it is created". And it usually applies to bureaucracy, government, and big businesses who can always find their ways around laws, unlike the small guy who is supposedly the one these laws seeks to defend.
Edited by The T - October 18 2011 at 10:05
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ClemofNazareth
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk Researcher
Joined: August 17 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4659
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Posted: October 18 2011 at 11:49 |
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
John F. Kennedy
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"Peace is the only battle worth waging."
Albert Camus
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: October 18 2011 at 12:50 |
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^These cops are an instrument of law enforcement for the government. Yet the protesters want to give government more power. That guy better enjoys being carried like that...
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ClemofNazareth
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk Researcher
Joined: August 17 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4659
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Posted: October 18 2011 at 12:57 |
 The T wrote:
^These cops are an instrument of law enforcement for the government. Yet the protesters want to give government more power. That guy better enjoys being carried like that... |
I think that's a bit oversimplistic. These appear to be city police not federal ones, and presumably the protestor is being charged with a local misdemeanor, not a violation of federal statute.
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"Peace is the only battle worth waging."
Albert Camus
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thellama73
Collaborator
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Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: October 18 2011 at 14:11 |
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Oh give it a rest with the cop bashing. From what I have seen, the police have been extremely gentle with these protestors, and yet everyone acts as if they are beating them senseless with nightsticks. The protestors have every right to demonstrate, but when they start breaking laws, the police will stop them. I don't see what's so fascist about that.
It's obvious that a lot of these people are intentionally provoking the cops, hoping to get arrested so they can claim victimhood.
Edited by thellama73 - October 18 2011 at 14:12
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: October 18 2011 at 14:27 |
The T wrote:
^These cops are an instrument of law enforcement for the government. Yet the protesters want to give government more power. That guy better enjoys being carried like that... |
They want government to assume more power in stopping corporate america from abusing its power. They do not want the government to assume more power over individual liberties (that's a conservative wish).
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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King of Loss
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 21 2005
Location: Boston, MA
Status: Offline
Points: 16442
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Posted: October 18 2011 at 14:54 |
The Doctor wrote:
The T wrote:
^These cops are an instrument of law enforcement for the government. Yet the protesters want to give government more power. That guy better enjoys being carried like that... |
They want government to assume more power in stopping corporate america from abusing its power. They do not want the government to assume more power over individual liberties (that's a conservative wish). |
Has Obama stopped the erosion of civil liberties during his presidency?
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: October 18 2011 at 15:19 |
The Doctor wrote:
The T wrote:
^These cops are an instrument of law enforcement for the government. Yet the protesters want to give government more power. That guy better enjoys being carried like that... |
They want government to assume more power in stopping corporate america from abusing its power. They do not want the government to assume more power over individual liberties (that's a conservative wish). |
Real corporate power comes from the government. Without government involvement, in the market, corporations only have the power given to them by consumers. On your second sentence: Seems that many in streets are demanding government limitations on economic liberties. Economic liberty and social liberty cannot be seperated.
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 Time always wins.
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17846
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Posted: October 18 2011 at 15:32 |
thellama73 wrote:
Oh give it a rest with the cop bashing. From what I have seen, the police have been extremely gentle with these protestors, and yet everyone acts as if they are beating them senseless with nightsticks. The protestors have every right to demonstrate, but when they start breaking laws, the police will stop them. I don't see what's so fascist about that.
It's obvious that a lot of these people are intentionally provoking the cops, hoping to get arrested so they can claim victimhood.
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 ......its only a matter of time before this whole thing gets real ugly in a lot of cities........and I believe the protesters will be the ones breaking the law(s).
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: October 18 2011 at 15:41 |
Catcher10 wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Oh give it a rest with the cop bashing. From what I have seen, the police have been extremely gentle with these protestors, and yet everyone acts as if they are beating them senseless with nightsticks. The protestors have every right to demonstrate, but when they start breaking laws, the police will stop them. I don't see what's so fascist about that.
It's obvious that a lot of these people are intentionally provoking the cops, hoping to get arrested so they can claim victimhood.
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......its only a matter of time before this whole thing gets real ugly in a lot of cities........and I believe the protesters will be the ones breaking the law(s).
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That's because the laws are designed to protect the wealthy aristocracy. Those on Wall Street, the wealthy and powerful robber barons have already broken all laws of decency and humanity. While I hope that things don't turn violent, anything that happens has been a long time (30 years about) in coming. And if things do get ugly, my support for the OWS protesters will not waiver.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: October 18 2011 at 15:49 |
manofmystery wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
The T wrote:
^These cops are an instrument of law enforcement for the government. Yet the protesters want to give government more power. That guy better enjoys being carried like that... |
They want government to assume more power in stopping corporate america from abusing its power. They do not want the government to assume more power over individual liberties (that's a conservative wish). |
Real corporate power comes from the government. Without government involvement, in the market, corporations only have the power given to them by consumers. On your second sentence: Seems that many in streets are demanding government limitations on economic liberties. Economic liberty and social liberty cannot be seperated. |
I actually agree with your last sentence, but I am sure that our definition of economic liberty differs radically. Economic liberty is not allowing a very few select individuals to control most of the country's wealth while the rest of the country must struggle economically. Economic liberty is having everyone free from the constraints of economic tyrrany. Meaning that everyone has the basic minimums of life met, food, shelter and health care and a job with a living wage. Basically FDR's second bill of rights. That is true economic freedom. The economic plutocracy we currently "enjoy" also translates into unbridled political power for those few, select individuals. For after Citizens United, our country is no longer "one person, one vote" but rather "one dollar, one vote".
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Syzygy
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 7003
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Posted: October 18 2011 at 16:16 |
The London protests have brought forth a veritable plague of right wing trolls on various newspaper forums, the BBC etc. In fact, given that less than 500 people are currently camped outside St Paul's Cathedral, they're generating apoplectic fits at an impressive rate. The gist of the comments posted seems to be: - despite their political ideals, many of them wear shoes. Hypocrites!
- they need a wash.
- haven't these people protesting about unemployment got jobs to go to?
- if we stop throwing taxpayer's money at the financial geniuses in The City, they'll all go to another country, and then where will we be?
- despite the lack of any violence or disorder, some of them look like they might get mildly aggrieved after a few days kettling, so we'd better get the watwer cannon out now!
- and so on and and depressingly so forth.
I haven't had time to catch up on the fine detail, but if so few protesters can rattle so many cages they're probably onto something.
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17846
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Posted: October 18 2011 at 16:26 |
The Doctor wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Oh give it a rest with the cop bashing. From what I have seen, the police have been extremely gentle with these protestors, and yet everyone acts as if they are beating them senseless with nightsticks. The protestors have every right to demonstrate, but when they start breaking laws, the police will stop them. I don't see what's so fascist about that.
It's obvious that a lot of these people are intentionally provoking the cops, hoping to get arrested so they can claim victimhood.
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......its only a matter of time before this whole thing gets real ugly in a lot of cities........and I believe the protesters will be the ones breaking the law(s).
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That's because the laws are designed to protect the wealthy aristocracy. Those on Wall Street, the wealthy and powerful robber barons have already broken all laws of decency and humanity. While I hope that things don't turn violent, anything that happens has been a long time (30 years about) in coming. And if things do get ugly, my support for the OWS protesters will not waiver. |
I agree in the decency part and humanity part, somewhat.......corporations basically have none of this, if they did they would not exist on Wall Street, nor would anyone invest in a company like that, since the almighty $$ rules.
I donate my time on the board of a local non-profit which helps the poor, hungry, jobless and homeless. Maybe this is not 100% the case, but I will state probably 75-80% of our cash donations come from the wealthy and corporations, and that has been the case for probably 25 years.
I wonder do people realize where the Red Cross, United Way, American Lung Assoc, Cancer Assoc would be without these large corporations and wealthy families that do give a lot of cash.......I doubt 50% of them would exist.
Its a double edged sword for sure....but is it? (I know I will get trashed..its ok, its such a huge topic)
I doubt anyone knows what the answer is.....but I do think an Enron or Madoff could happen again......but we all hope not. So its why I think decency and some humanity does not exist on Wall Street anymore.....feces flows downstream, in this case from 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: October 18 2011 at 16:27 |
Water cannons? I've heard right-wingers here calling for beatings, labor camps and extermination of the protesters. Usually in the same breath that they're comparing the protesters to Nazis. 
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 29 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8368
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Posted: October 18 2011 at 19:29 |
The Doctor wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
thellama73 wrote:
Oh give it a rest with the cop bashing. From what I have seen, the police have been extremely gentle with these protestors, and yet everyone acts as if they are beating them senseless with nightsticks. The protestors have every right to demonstrate, but when they start breaking laws, the police will stop them. I don't see what's so fascist about that.
It's obvious that a lot of these people are intentionally provoking the cops, hoping to get arrested so they can claim victimhood.
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......its only a matter of time before this whole thing gets real ugly in a lot of cities........and I believe the protesters will be the ones breaking the law(s).
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That's because the laws are designed to protect the wealthy aristocracy. Those on Wall Street, the wealthy and powerful robber barons have already broken all laws of decency and humanity. While I hope that things don't turn violent, anything that happens has been a long time (30 years about) in coming. And if things do get ugly, my support for the OWS protesters will not waiver. |
I think laws against vandalism and assault are not just designed to protect the wealthy autocracy.
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 23 2005
Location: The Tardis
Status: Offline
Points: 8543
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Posted: October 18 2011 at 19:44 |
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They weren't going after Tea Partiers when they stomped on that woman's head. No one was arrested. No one was arrested for disturbing the peace when they were shouting down speakers at town hall meetings. The laws may be designed to protect all, but in reality there is selective prosecution. As another example, if I embezzle $1000 from my employer, I go to jail. If a CEO embezzles millions from the country, he's given a big fat bonus.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17846
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Posted: October 18 2011 at 20:15 |
^ I know where u are coming from.....Golden Parachutes for CEO's are not fair when the company does not meet goals that the common employee feels should have been met. Or a CEO that is in a job for 1yr and leaves or is "dismissed" from his/her position and walks away with $10million.
But the ones that need to be held accountable are the board members or HR group that elected the CEO and also approved the severence package.
I highly doubt any of us would refuse a package like that  .......Now that does not excuse the CEO from using some decency and humanity to possibly refuse the bonus package, knowing full well he/she did not perform to expectations......But these CEO contracts are legal documents in the eyes of the court..no law is being broken, on either side. But I can agree the "law" of humanity and decency is being broken. And to me if a company continues to operate that way then they are not a company to invest in or support or follow.......but again that is just my personal choice.
But..if we look at the corporate bailouts that DC approved to stimulate the economy and "save" certain US companies.......we all remember how some of these companies were reported as using some of this bailout money to give out bonuses.......Who's fault was that?? Washington, DC.....they did not cover all the angles when they approved the bailout...shame on them.
To me it just shows DC has no idea how to run a business...and they are running the USA Company into the dirt.
Edited by Catcher10 - October 18 2011 at 20:20
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: October 18 2011 at 21:11 |
The Doctor wrote:
They weren't going after Tea Partiers when they stomped on that woman's head. No one was arrested. No one was arrested for disturbing the peace when they were shouting down speakers at town hall meetings. The laws may be designed to protect all, but in reality there is selective prosecution. As another example, if I embezzle $1000 from my employer, I go to jail. If a CEO embezzles millions from the country, he's given a big fat bonus.
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This theory really didn't help Bernie Madoff, though.
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manofmystery
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 26 2008
Location: PA, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 4335
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Posted: October 19 2011 at 00:08 |
The Doctor wrote:
manofmystery wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
The T wrote:
^These cops are an instrument of law enforcement for the government. Yet the protesters want to give government more power. That guy better enjoys being carried like that... |
They want government to assume more power in stopping corporate america from abusing its power. They do not want the government to assume more power over individual liberties (that's a conservative wish). |
Real corporate power comes from the government. Without government involvement, in the market, corporations only have the power given to them by consumers. On your second sentence: Seems that many in streets are demanding government limitations on economic liberties. Economic liberty and social liberty cannot be seperated. |
I actually agree with your last sentence, but I am sure that our definition of economic liberty differs radically. Economic liberty is not allowing a very few select individuals to control most of the country's wealth while the rest of the country must struggle economically. Economic liberty is having everyone free from the constraints of economic tyrrany. Meaning that everyone has the basic minimums of life met, food, shelter and health care and a job with a living wage. Basically FDR's second bill of rights. That is true economic freedom. The economic plutocracy we currently "enjoy" also translates into unbridled political power for those few, select individuals. For after Citizens United, our country is no longer "one person, one vote" but rather "one dollar, one vote". |
You basically describe the opposite of economic liberty while describing what you support. There is no grey area on this, there is no differing of definition. When you ensure "minimums" on high you have to forcibly take from someone to provide for another. There is no liberty there. FDR's second bill of rights is one of the most horrendously facist power grabs ever proposed.
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Time always wins.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: October 19 2011 at 00:15 |
manofmystery wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
manofmystery wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
The T wrote:
^These cops are an instrument of law enforcement for the government. Yet the protesters want to give government more power. That guy better enjoys being carried like that... |
They want government to assume more power in stopping corporate america from abusing its power. They do not want the government to assume more power over individual liberties (that's a conservative wish). |
Real corporate power comes from the government. Without government involvement, in the market, corporations only have the power given to them by consumers. On your second sentence: Seems that many in streets are demanding government limitations on economic liberties. Economic liberty and social liberty cannot be seperated. |
I actually agree with your last sentence, but I am sure that our definition of economic liberty differs radically. Economic liberty is not allowing a very few select individuals to control most of the country's wealth while the rest of the country must struggle economically. Economic liberty is having everyone free from the constraints of economic tyrrany. Meaning that everyone has the basic minimums of life met, food, shelter and health care and a job with a living wage. Basically FDR's second bill of rights. That is true economic freedom. The economic plutocracy we currently "enjoy" also translates into unbridled political power for those few, select individuals. For after Citizens United, our country is no longer "one person, one vote" but rather "one dollar, one vote". |
You basically describe the opposite of economic liberty while describing what you support. There is no grey area on this, there is no differing of definition. When you ensure "minimums" on high you have to forcibly take from someone to provide for another. There is no liberty there. FDR's second bill of rights is one of the most horrendously facist power grabs ever proposed. |
This.
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"Occupy" Protests
