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harmonium.ro View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 07:24
Originally posted by OT Räihälä OT Räihälä wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

^ Dunno, I think Radiohead only became progressive around 2000, with Kid A. The alternative rock they did before that was great but nothing that hadn't been established by others before. 

Here you imply that progressive is a style, but I think we should save that adjective to describe something that makes progress from some previous standpoint. Radiohead weren't prog rock (which is a style) in the 90's, but they were very progressive.

OTOH, alternative rock is a style, but there is no such thing as alternative rock, because it should be an alternative for something else, and that means all rock music is alternative because it is an alternative to something else... Wacko

And to go further, there is no such thing as experimental music...


I don't think you followed me; what I said was the exact opposite, so we were not in disagreement. I didn't imply progressive is a style; a style is prog rock. Progressive is, like you said moving further; an approach.

However I don't think Radiohead were progressive in approach on the first three albums, IMO they were more or less evolving inside the post-grunge paradigm (that was set by others).

Also, yeah, you should know that alternative was in fact not a style name at the beginning. Just like independent, it was supposed to say that the music comes from the independent scene, which is alternative to the mainstream scene. These two terms only became stylistic indicators much later.

And of course there is experimental music, don't be silly.


Edited by harmonium.ro - October 10 2011 at 07:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 07:54
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

And of course there is experimental music, don't be silly.

The term "experimental" refers to something that results from an experiment. The only way to make experimental music would be to create sounds/silence/rhythms/pauses etc. by total randomness, but to do that you have to make the decision to create music that way. Then making this "experiment" has become a composing method, and it's not more experimental than making say, dodecaphonic, stochastic, aleatoric or any other kind of music.

There is perhaps a music style called "experimental music", but experimental music as such doesn't exist. 

This is of course hairsplitting. Tongue
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 08:34
Yeah, what you are describing is pure experiment, total experiment, I don't know what to call it. However, experiment can be done in any context of reference points. You can pick up very well known reference points and experiment from there (i.e. trying a new/different approach to work something from that particular context). That's why one can experiment even in pop music. On the opposite side, you can try to establish a context of reference points that are the least known and explored, and try to go further from there. That's what you described. 

There's hardly anything better than scholastic hair-splitting on PA, I live for this. Wink

EDIT: same goes for cooking. You can experiment even with the ingredients of the most simple salad... Just use something you normally wouldn't use there. And beware of potential side effects. LOL


Edited by harmonium.ro - October 10 2011 at 08:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 08:48
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by OT Räihälä OT Räihälä wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

^ Dunno, I think Radiohead only became progressive around 2000, with Kid A. The alternative rock they did before that was great but nothing that hadn't been established by others before. 

Here you imply that progressive is a style, but I think we should save that adjective to describe something that makes progress from some previous standpoint. Radiohead weren't prog rock (which is a style) in the 90's, but they were very progressive.

OTOH, alternative rock is a style, but there is no such thing as alternative rock, because it should be an alternative for something else, and that means all rock music is alternative because it is an alternative to something else... Wacko

And to go further, there is no such thing as experimental music...


I don't think you followed me; what I said was the exact opposite, so we were not in disagreement. I didn't imply progressive is a style; a style is prog rock. Progressive is, like you said moving further; an approach.

However I don't think Radiohead were progressive in approach on the first three albums, IMO they were more or less evolving inside the post-grunge paradigm (that was set by others).

Also, yeah, you should know that alternative was in fact not a style name at the beginning. Just like independent, it was supposed to say that the music comes from the independent scene, which is alternative to the mainstream scene. These two terms only became stylistic indicators much later.

And of course there is experimental music, don't be silly.
 
Is it possible to establish a difference between being original/innovative and progressive?  Perhaps, progressive is more akin to "groundbreaking", in which case it is a word to be used sparingly (and probably wouldn't apply to many 70s prog rock bands, let alone more contemporary bands).  I would not call Radiohead a groundbreaking band because their albums represent more a contemporary update of rock music. But the way in which they go about is very original and unique and to that extent, they are comfortably more progressive (adj.) than Anglagard or Spocks Beard.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 08:57
I know the adjective "progressive" has been used before in relation to classical music and jazz, so I can't really give an answer before I know how was it used in those contexts. The use in rock of the word progressive implies a certain emphasis on development in what the formal aspect is concerned; in that framework I wouldn't equal progressive with groundbreaking or original/innovative. You can be innovative and groundbreaking in pop music, too. Bob Dylan going electric was one of the most innovative and groundbreaking moments of pop music, yet there wasn't much progressive about it.   
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 09:10
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

I know the adjective "progressive" has been used before in relation to classical music and jazz, so I can't really give an answer before I know how was it used in those contexts. The use in rock of the word progressive implies a certain emphasis on development in what the formal aspect is concerned; in that framework I wouldn't equal progressive with groundbreaking or original/innovative. You can be innovative and groundbreaking in pop music, too. Bob Dylan going electric was one of the most innovative and groundbreaking moments of pop music, yet there wasn't much progressive about it.   
 
But that seems to be lead us right back to prog the genre.  I'd have thought progressive as an adjective implies progressing the state of a given genre of music which Dylan certainly did. Dylan and RS were progressive musicians of their time and nobody is going to dispute that re Beatles anyway.  If we take emphasis on development as the crux of what is progressive, I think tracks like Airbag, Exit Music for a film and Paranoid Android do reveal a thrust on that in the OK Computer album (though there are several more straight up tracks like Lucky or Subterranean Homesick Alien).  It is rightly compared to DSOTM in that sense because that album too has some progressive moments and some much closer to regular rock music.   I agree that Kid A is a more progressive album if taken in that light but I'd then also not dispute Anglagard or SB either.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 09:26
On OK Computer, Radiohead didn't sound like old prog or like neo prog, and it requires some effort to explain where their progressivity lied. There are some works where the overall structure points towards classic prog, like Paranoid Android, but to me that album has always belonged to prog rock because of its approach. This is pretty tough to describe and I don't have the time to try that just now, but the comparison with DSOTM is very useful for the reasons rogerthat already wrote down.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 09:27
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

I know the adjective "progressive" has been used before in relation to classical music and jazz, so I can't really give an answer before I know how was it used in those contexts. The use in rock of the word progressive implies a certain emphasis on development in what the formal aspect is concerned; in that framework I wouldn't equal progressive with groundbreaking or original/innovative. You can be innovative and groundbreaking in pop music, too. Bob Dylan going electric was one of the most innovative and groundbreaking moments of pop music, yet there wasn't much progressive about it.   
 
But that seems to be lead us right back to prog the genre.  I'd have thought progressive as an adjective implies progressing the state of a given genre of music which Dylan certainly did. Dylan and RS were progressive musicians of their time and nobody is going to dispute that re Beatles anyway.  If we take emphasis on development as the crux of what is progressive, I think tracks like Airbag, Exit Music for a film and Paranoid Android do reveal a thrust on that in the OK Computer album (though there are several more straight up tracks like Lucky or Subterranean Homesick Alien).  It is rightly compared to DSOTM in that sense because that album too has some progressive moments and some much closer to regular rock music.   I agree that Kid A is a more progressive album if taken in that light but I'd then also not dispute Anglagard or SB either.

^ I know what progressive means in its literal sense. But as I said, in a rock music context, "progressive" has a certain meaning that was established in time because of the conceptual sphere of the progressive rock movement. Which is why if you want to use "progressive" in a literal sense on a prog forum, you need to specify this because otherwise many people will think of the other sense, the one about formal development in rock music.

Similar cases can be found in discourse on all arts, for example there are people talking how "impressionist" are some ancient Roman frescoes, or how "baroque" is the ancient Greek sculpture Laocoon, or how "romantic" was Christopher Marlowe. One has to be very careful when using an adjective that already has a background from a particular artistic style/movement. 

The comparison with DSOTM is excellent, I see OK Computer just as progressive in comparison with early to mid '90s alt.rock as DSOTM is in comparison with the progressive rock of  '69 to '72. I.e, not very much; I see them more as perfect, crowning accomplishments in art forms developed by others (in Pink Floyd's case, by their own past works, which is less the case for Radiohead).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 09:34
Originally posted by OT Räihälä OT Räihälä wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

And of course there is experimental music, don't be silly.

The term "experimental" refers to something that results from an experiment. The only way to make experimental music would be to create sounds/silence/rhythms/pauses etc. by total randomness, but to do that you have to make the decision to create music that way. Then making this "experiment" has become a composing method, and it's not more experimental than making say, dodecaphonic, stochastic, aleatoric or any other kind of music.

There is perhaps a music style called "experimental music", but experimental music as such doesn't exist. 

This is of course hairsplitting. Tongue

Talk about blowing it out of your arse! Just because it has a method doesnt mean its not experimental, if you dont know what the outcome is then its going to be an experiment.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 09:44
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

I see OK Computer just as progressive in comparison with early to mid '90s alt.rock as DSOTM is in comparison with the progressive rock of  '69 to '72. I.e, not very much; I see them more as perfect, crowning accomplishments in art forms developed by others (in Pink Floyd's case, by their own past works, which is less the case for Radiohead).
 
Alt rock is one heck of a black hole Tongue...and in the 90s, it could mean literally anything so what's roughly the music you are comparing OK Computer with here?  In comparison to what the Seattle grunge or Smashin' Pumpkins, U2 or Oasis were doing up to that point, I'd say OK Computer is at a totally different level. It is as intricate and detailed in its execution as Grace but much more evolved and eclectic, formally.  It is as if the band wanted to remind the mainstream scene of the time what great rock music used to be about without sounding like a fascimile of classic rock.  Again, this depends on what we are comparing OKC with it and it's possible there were some alt rock bands at that time who were writing rock music of a lot of subtlety and depth in composition which I haven't heard.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 09:50
Par Lindh. PLP - Gothic Impressions was written in the seventies but he couldn't get it released at the time as the record company got cold feet.The revival of interest in prog in the nineties meant he was finally able to get it recorded with modern technology. It was a good up to date (tech wise) retro prog album.
As for something that was actually 'progressive' then I would say Radiohead - OK Computer as already mentioned if only for Paranoid Android and Karma Police.
Another band that deserve some credit for trying something different was Mansun. Their first two albums were very progressive orientated in approach. Six in particular was a bit of a curiosity:


Edited by richardh - October 10 2011 at 09:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 10:19
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

I see OK Computer just as progressive in comparison with early to mid '90s alt.rock as DSOTM is in comparison with the progressive rock of  '69 to '72. I.e, not very much; I see them more as perfect, crowning accomplishments in art forms developed by others (in Pink Floyd's case, by their own past works, which is less the case for Radiohead).
 
Alt rock is one heck of a black hole Tongue...and in the 90s, it could mean literally anything so what's roughly the music you are comparing OK Computer with here?  In comparison to what the Seattle grunge or Smashin' Pumpkins, U2 or Oasis were doing up to that point, I'd say OK Computer is at a totally different level. It is as intricate and detailed in its execution as Grace but much more evolved and eclectic, formally.  It is as if the band wanted to remind the mainstream scene of the time what great rock music used to be about without sounding like a fascimile of classic rock.  Again, this depends on what we are comparing OKC with it and it's possible there were some alt rock bands at that time who were writing rock music of a lot of subtlety and depth in composition which I haven't heard.

You nailed it there, that's more or less the framework I was thinking of. I agree Radiohead went further than any of the mentioned bands, but I see them as the end of an evolutionary process. They didn't come up themselves with revolutionary innovations, which is the kind of progress we've been discussing here*.  Nothing like what Dylan going electric was for 1965, King Crimson for 1969 or punk for 1976. I just think OK Computer was better, more refined and more accomplished. Another thing to measure innovation with is what paths does it open; or in this respect the innovative bands of the mid to late 90s were Neutral Milk Hotel, Modest Mouse, Yo La Tengo, Wilco, Belle And Sebastian, Trans Am, GYBE, etc., because they were the ones to break the new grounds for '00s indie rock. OK C was an end of the road IMO, that album coudn't be bettered, outdone, continued. Even Radiohead, when they changed direction with the more experimental Kid A and the albums that followed, they were recycling things already done in the early to mid '90s by Pram, Trans Am, Seefeel, Tortoise, Disco Inferno, Stereolab, etc.

* i.e. the groundbreaking revolution implied by the OP 


Edited by harmonium.ro - October 10 2011 at 10:25
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 11:31
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Even Radiohead, when they changed direction with the more experimental Kid A and the albums that followed, they were recycling things already done in the early to mid '90s by Pram, Trans Am, Seefeel, Tortoise, Disco Inferno, Stereolab, etc.
That's interesting, I don't know the other artists but was a Stereolab fan before I got into Radiohead.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 11:32
I'll dig up some recommendations for you Brian. Thumbs Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 12:18
You're like the originality police. LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 12:24
LOL Embarrassed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 12:36
hm come to think about the 90s didn't have too much music I liked, the 00's on the other hand are fab.

There though some bands like Mr. Bungle, Thinking Plague, Cardiacs (who released their best album in the 90s), Uz Jsme Doma who released some great stuff, and others I can't think of at the mo. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 12:49
^ weren't Mr. Bungle just the most prominent band of an entire avantgarde scene in the 90s? You should check out this band, as a Bungle/Cardiacs fan, and maybe Sun City Girls, Shellac and Melt-Banana too. I assume you know Naked City already. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 13:31
^ ah yeah Naked City I knew I forgot someone! Shellac I listened to once but didn't really get into, Melt-Banana and Sun City Girls and the band you sent me whose-name-is-too-long-but-if-I-typed-the-name-it would've-been-shorter-than-this I will check out, thanks for the recs. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 10 2011 at 13:42
Originally posted by sleeper sleeper wrote:

 
Talk about blowing it out of your arse! Just because it has a method doesnt mean its not experimental, if you dont know what the outcome is then its going to be an experiment.

To make "experimental music" is not about having a method, it is a method. The "experimental" is a method that (perhaps) produces unexpected results, but that is just a way of working. You can of course make music using a lottery machine, and it may generate music that you can call experimental music, but to make music that way is not to make experiments.

As a composer I can normally choose between two methods: 1) pre-determining everything in a work, leading to full serialism, or 2) leaving room for the unexpected development. I always work with the latter. The end product may sound like "experimental", but there is nothing experimental in that working method.

There was a time when anything out of major/minor tonality was called "experimental", which I found tragicomic. From a conservative pop music listener's point of view almost all prog is just what you could call "experimental".
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