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jean-marie 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: July 27 2010 Location: FRANCE Status: Offline Points: 2585 |
 Posted: September 07 2011 at 04:18 |
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Push the walls means creating a soundscape, a sonic space....imho
 Edited by jean-marie - September 07 2011 at 04:28 |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 07 2011 at 05:05 |
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Ys, being at the heart of the sound, so the walls vanish...
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awaken77
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 25 2008 Status: Offline Points: 374 |
Posted: September 07 2011 at 05:13 |
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I discovered my old portable Cd player (which I not used for 2 years), and revived it.
it was not functional due to oxidized battery contacts - I cleaned it, and now enjoying 2 Nathan Mahl CDs all day |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 07 2011 at 07:19 |
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Which Discman is it? I'm using the 1989 Sony D25 S, a fine sounding one, among the world top three, features a good direct line output, perfect to plug to a portable amp 
The absolute best sounding Discman ever being the Sony D555  Edited by oliverstoned - September 07 2011 at 07:31 |
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awaken77
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 25 2008 Status: Offline Points: 374 |
Posted: September 07 2011 at 07:44 |
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digital thing lacks one aspect - getting in closer touch with performer
When I go to the concert, and I like the music, I usually buy CD , and get autographs of musician(s) on the booklet. Some of them write not just the signature, but also some warm words.. that's so nice to have and collect such things How would you imagine getting autograph on a flash memory card with mp3 ? Edited by awaken77 - September 07 2011 at 07:44 |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 07 2011 at 07:54 |
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Small format and small sound, that's the way it is.
The only way to compensate is to work with big digital, separate drive/converters or very very big integrated players. It's better, but will never match analog. But we must admit that Cd is very convenient. |
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 16 2006 Location: FL, USA Status: Offline Points: 17493 |
Posted: September 07 2011 at 17:06 |
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Well, the links are gone now but apparently not long ago wooden volume knobs were sold that were supposed to improve the audio experience due to lower vibration and distortion  Edited by The T - September 07 2011 at 17:07 |
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17847 |
Posted: September 07 2011 at 17:33 |
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I love this thread......I have learned so much
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 08 2011 at 10:43 |
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Considering that you claim that the followings points cannot produce an audible difference The use of tube for better mids and highs The use of separate drive/converter digital set up The use of separate preamp/amp stages Power optimization Vibration control optimization Cabling and contacts and so many other things My system is made up of all this so why would it sound better than any "normal" system like yours? I run modest speakers so it doesn't comes from it, and i used to own 3 pairs of first price Mission Loudspeakers before and my system was already like it is today in term of electronics and was already extraordinary sounding. So, what would make my home system better than an ordinary one? And it does, thanks to all the things quoted up. Jean Marie would tell that it's day and night, no comparison with anything else, first time in his life he listen to such sound. And everybody reacts the same to my system. That's empiric science. Edited by oliverstoned - September 09 2011 at 14:04 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 10 2011 at 20:18 |
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This isn't so much hard to believe as nigh on impossible to believe. Sadly this is one of the more widely documented audiophilist hoaxes that is less believable than the emperor's new clothes. The "green-pen" has no effect on the audio quality contained within the digitally encoded signal read from the CD - that is a bankable fact. Moreover, it has no effect on the digital signal read back from the CD surface. We can go into the physics of this if you wish, but frankly it's a waste of my time.
This two misconceptions bundled into one throw-away comment, so let's look at them individually:
1. Even if there was ferrous compounds in the CD materials (which is highly debatable anyway) it cannot affect the optical properties of the reflective aluminium surface whether they are magnetised or not - this is just bad science badly applied and there is no excuse for this.
2. In cables and contacts the minuscule amounts of ferric compounds in the copper and gold conductors have the same effect on the electrical conduction whether they are magnetised or not - signal transmission is by electrical conduction not by electro-magnetic propagation so any magnetic properties are irrelevant - iron is a poor conductor, it remains a poor conductor when magnetised and when demagnetised. Again, demagnetising conductors is bad science badly applied and there is no excuse for this.
The currents induced in the cable are so small as to be below the noise floor of any system, regardless of how "audiophile" that system is. There is more effect from stray cosmic particles hitting the cabling than from any electro-magnetic induction. Isolating cabling from vibration is more bad science badly applied and there is no excuse for this.
Contacts that are affected by vibration should be cleaned or replaced, not fudged to make then less susceptible. I honestly do not believe that you would have a set-up that has such poor contacts.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 10 2011 at 20:25 |
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...yours for just $485 each...
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 11 2011 at 03:36 |
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Hardy-har-har, very funny, you're a laugh a minute. You know exactly what I mean here so stop trying to be clever. If you must try and score points off me then this is a childish way of doing it.
Did Jean-Marie hear your system with "standard" low-cost cables, zero anti-vibration modifications on amplifiers, CD transports, cables and recievers and without the unnecessary power filtering?
If so did you subject him to true double-blind listening tests?
So? I have said before, and I will undoubtedly say again: anti-vibration spikes on speakers is a proven "good idea", acoustic isolation of a turntable is another proven "good idea" - however applying that "fix" to hi-fi components that have no electro-mechanical properties such as receivers, amplifiers, tape-decks, cables, CD transports and DACs is pointless and redundant.
At last we are getting somewhere. You may not have noticed this, but I have refrained from making any comments or jokes regarding the "pushing walls" statement in this or any other thread simply because I did not fully understand what Oliver meant by it - in the past when I have asked him to explain all those non-technical poetic terms and phrases he uses I did not get any adequate explanations so this time I simply applied my own definition. By this explanation my system also pushes walls, however I would not use that phrase myself - when I listen to music I hear the music, not the room or the individual hi-fi components - clarity, definition and sound-staging is something I am highly aware of through mixing and producing music with my home studio equipment - I could not achieve that if I could not "hear" that on play-back through my domestic hi-fi set-up.
Kind of... but not really. This sounds more like you have a solid state sub-bass woofer to compensate for the poor low-frequency response of the valve amplifier (a property of the output transformer, not the valves themselves). Personally I would not miss-match the power rating of the two amplifiers quite so drastically, however I doubt you are running the solid-state amplifier at 6 times the volume of the valve amp (unless you are a 13 year old adolescent male listening to drum'n'bass and hip-hop in their bedroom). Edited by Dean - September 11 2011 at 17:37 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 11 2011 at 10:25 |
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I have covered all these points in the past, but for clarity I will repeat myself:
This is a fallacy and "better" is a subjective observation - the objective observation is that valve amplifiers are "different".
Valve amplifiers add distortion in both the voltage and the time domain, this results in increased harmonic distortion and non-linear frequency response (caused predominately by the output transformer but also by the valve voltage-to-voltage transfer characteristic - the creation of the pentode valve was an attempt to overcome these characteristics in triodes but even that was not 100% successful). This distortion is more prevalent (ie noticable) at mid and higher frequencies, also the construction of the output transformer and the poor impedance matching at low frequencies makes valve amplifiers less "good" for low frequencies (through poor damping factor) even though the resulting mids can be described as "warmer" (poor low frequency response should make the mids "brighter", not "warmer") - this dichotomy is caused by the increase in even-harmonics in the distorted signal (resulting in warm flute-like tones) at the mid and high frequecies (this distortion is still present at low frequecies but we are less able to notice it). Many people like this kind of distortion but that does not make it better - valve amplifiers are not "fidelity" - they do not reproduce the sound that the record producer recorded in the studio so are not hi-fi (high-fidelity) by definition. Solid-state amplifiers out perform valves in every respect and create a near-perfect audio sound stage - unfortunately many people do not like this 100% transparency but prefer the colourisation created by the imperfect valve amplifier.
It is possible to recreate the "valve-sound" in a solid state amplifier using complex filtering to dynamically alter the colouration of the audio spectrum - this is not common in hi-fi amplifiers because filters are considered to be a "no-no" in this environment, however in guitar amplifiers "valve modelling" is common and can be achived easily using digital processing techniques. Note that here the DSP adds colour to a colourless (ie transparent) amplifier - it adds distortion. If anyone likes that distortion best then they still cannot claim that a valve amp is better than a solid state amp, it's just "different" and certainly cannot be called "transparent".
There is no sound reason for doing this and it does not affect the audible quality of the play-back. It is fundamentally impossible to affect the audio information contained within the digitally encoded signal, even with pseudoscience and alchemy - this would be like changing the contents of a letter by drawing on the envelope - a neat conjuring trick, but not real magic. It is impossible to isolate the digital and the analogue domains because at some point in the path the digital signal has to be decoded and this happens in the DAC converter, not in the drive (hereafter called "the transport").
However, there is a good logical reason for separating the transport from the electronics - transports are mechanical devices that are subject to mechanical failure and they will eventually break - in most cases a "dead" CD player will have a broken transport while the electronics will continue to work perfectly. Being able to replace a broken transport while keeping the same DAC converter makes perfect sense.
All the transports in the world are made by a couple of major manufacturers - small hi-fi manufacturers do not make the transport mechanics or the laser/lens assemblies, they buy them in bulk as OEM assemblies and re-box them - the same transport hardware will be used in expensive CD players as in the cheap $40 ones from Amazon.
Similarly, smaller hi-fi manufacturers do not have the resources and capabilities to design and fabricate their own sigma-delta codecs, they buy them in from major manufacturers (Panasonic, Linear, Sony, Wolfson, Burr-Brown/TI etc) and design them into their own PCBs - a high-priced DAC separate will use the same electronic components as a $40 CD player (or mp3 player) from Amazon.
As with headphone amplifiers you are not paying extra for "better" electronics, you are paying for a name badge and an expensive aluminium box.
This is also true of DVD, home cinema and Blu-ray systems - smaller "audiophile" and top-end manufactures do not have the resources and capabilities to design and build these units - they buy the pre-assembled chassis from one of the major electronics companies (often Sony, Philips or Panasonic) and re-badge them with their own front-panel.
Ah, yes.
 Erm.  I admit I have done this, although I do not believe the benefits are measurable or noticeable - it is purely esthetic's - it looks more impressive to have separate pre-amp and power amp (and preferably two separate mono power amps). I have even built a system with a separate power supply for each amplifier (resulting in 6 boxes instead of 1) simply because I could. However this system would sound exactly the same if I had constructed it into one single chassis.However there is no sound reason for doing this and properly designed there is no reason why an integrated amplifier will sound any different to separate pre and power amplifiers. Hi-fi design engineers are fully aware of the interaction between stages and design the power supply filtering to ensure signal isolation, or in some units having separate supplies for pre and power stages. A well designed integrated amplifiers will be "better" than two poorly designed separates.
Separate pre and power amps are purely a "fashion" thing - by having two boxes instead of one it gives the impression of having more for your money (although it will cost you twice as much) and of course is another means that equipment manufacturers use to separate an audiophilist from their wallet. Personally (as an electronics engineer), I find the arrogance of untrained amateur audiophilists knowing better than qualified professional audio design engineers mildly insulting while simultaneously being highly amusing. (fortunately my ability to laugh is far more acute than my sensitivity to being insulted)
I will also admit to owning a separate phono amplifier on one of my systems - this is not for improved sound quality (for there is none) by a simple matter of necessity - the amplifier I am using does not have a phono input stage.
We've been here before and this is a really poor understanding of basic electrical theory. The reasons Oliver puts forward for this are too embarrassing to repeat and I'll not dwell on it further. Seriously - if you've the money to waste on doing this go ahead, but as someone who does understand power distibution and the power requirements of even the heaviest of domestic hi-fi I'll spend my spare cash on CDs thank you.
I have said this time and time again - vibration isolation of electro-mechanical components is a "good thing" - applying that to components that have no electro-mechanical properties is a waste of time and money.
Loudspeakers - yes - these are electro-mechanical devices so power used to move the box is power that is not being used to move the speaker cone - this does affect the sound output from the speakers and will drastically (ie measurably) change the performance of the speakers. I recomend that everyone tries this on their speakers - anything that stops the cabinet from vibrating will result in a positive improvement in the sound.
Turntables - yes/maybe - these are electro-mechanical devices - the stylus cartridge converts mechanical vibrations into electrical signals - it is common sense to isolate the platter, cartridge and tone-arm from external vibrations - this sense is so
 ing common that every turntable manufacturer in the world knows this so they design their equipment to provide sufficient vibration isolation for most uses, however they cannot tailor their equipment to every domestic environment so adding extra anti-vibration is not a "bad thing", though often a redundancy.Tape-decks - no - while at first glance these appear to be mechanical devices, they are not electro-mechanical as such so are immune from acoustic vibration interfering with the analogue signal. There is more chance of vibration from the capstan and spool motors than there is of external vibrations, and the equipment designers have isolated that cause in the basic design. It is impossible for the amateur to improve on this with bituminous foil, isolation cones and a concrete dais to stand it on.
Pre-amps, power-amps, receivers, CD transports, etc - no - really, just no. There are no electro-mechanical devices in these so any anti-vibration isolation is pointless and a waste of cash and effort. I will make small allowance for valve amplifiers, but honestly any valve that is microphonic should be replaced because the grid wires have worn loose - however given the cost of audio quality valves some isolation will lengthen their useful life so is a useful temporary stop-gap.
Cables and connectors - no - this is bad science - induced currents caused by vibrating wires are too small to make any difference and any cable or connector that is microphonic should be thrown away because it is broken.
We've been here a million times before and nothing changes.
When a cable manufacturer or audiophilist claims James Randi's million dollars then I may reconcider my views on audio interconnects, but until that day my stance is unchanged:
Upgrade your interconnects from the nasty $2 RCA cables that come supplied free with audio components to something of better quality by all means, but do not spend stupid money on unproven over-priced interconnects. All of the claims made by these cable manufacturers are meaningless and unproveable. The same is true of loudspeaker cables - any cable that is thicker than bell-wire (the wire that once was used to wire door-bells) will give an improvement, but going beyond that to esoteric custom speaker cable is a waste of money. Claims made by these cable manufacturers cannot be proven or measured - any percieved improvement is the result of confirmation bias.
Such as? Please do not mention "burn-in" - I work in the military and aero-space industry where burn-in is a matter of course, my knowledge and understanding in this field goes far beyond anything that an amateur audiophilist can ever dream of knowing and audiophile "burn-in" is a terrible misapplication of a poor understanding of this science. Similarly do not mention cable polarity - that is nothing more than paranormal activity masquerading as a poor pseudoscience.
You have no concept of how my system sounds so any comparative claims you make are unfounded. I have never (nor ever will) make any claims about my system relative to anyone else's - I'm not that arrogant or conceited. I am happy with my set ups (I do have more than one) and you are happy with yours that is the beginning, the end and all there is to say on the subject.
What makes your system different from an ordinary one? It is an ordinary one, nothing is custom made, it's all available from the typical high-end hi-fi retailer or pre-owned off eBay. The changes and so-called modifications you have made have improved nothing, by your own admission your system sounded good before these changes, any further improvement you think you have made is the result of confirmation bias.
In your opinion - you cannot backup that statement with any rational scientific argument, nor can you demonstrate any one of those "claims" under a controlled experimental conditions.
Did those people hear your system "out of the box"? (ie without your so-called improvements). Did you subject them to a double-blind comparison?
No it isn't. Empirical science involves application of the scientific method: hypothesis, observation and analysis/review. Observation alone is not empirical, it has to be in support of a hypothesis and be backed-up by comparative analysis - even pseudoscience attempts to be scientific by proposing an hypothesis even if it cannot be supported by repeatable observation and analysis. Audiophilists are not employing the scientific method - they are doing the equivalent of looking at the Moon and concluding it is made of cream cheese - which is neither empiric nor is it scientific. Edited by Dean - September 11 2011 at 10:58 |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 12 2011 at 03:42 |
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You wrote a lot but did not replied to the essential question: why my system would work better considering that nothing affects nothing?
Everybody agrees that my system has nothing common with an ordinary one. So what's different? |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 12 2011 at 04:08 |
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"The use of tube for better mids and highs
This is a fallacy and "better" is a subjective observation - the objective observation is that valve amplifiers are "different". Valve amplifiers add distortion in both the voltage and the time domain, this results in increased harmonic distortion and non-linear frequency response (caused predominately by the output transformer but also by the valve voltage-to-voltage transfer characteristic - the creation of the pentode valve was an attempt to overcome these characteristics in triodes but even that was not 100% successful). This distortion is more prevalent (ie noticable) at mid and higher frequencies, also the construction of the output transformer and the poor impedance matching at low frequencies makes valve amplifiers less "good" for low frequencies (through poor damping factor) even though the resulting mids can be described as "warmer" (poor low frequency response should make the mids "brighter", not "warmer") - this dichotomy is caused by the increase in even-harmonics in the distorted signal (resulting in warm flute-like tones) at the mid and high frequecies (this distortion is still present at low frequecies but we are less able to notice it). Many people like this kind of distortion but that does not make it better - valve amplifiers are not "fidelity" - they do not reproduce the sound that the record producer recorded in the studio so are not hi-fi (high-fidelity) by definition. Solid-state amplifiers out perform valves in every respect and create a near-perfect audio sound stage - unfortunately many people do not like this 100% transparency but prefer the colourisation created by the imperfect valve amplifier. It is possible to recreate the "valve-sound" in a solid state amplifier using complex filtering to dynamically alter the colouration of the audio spectrum - this is not common in hi-fi amplifiers because filters are considered to be a "no-no" in this environment, however in guitar amplifiers "valve modelling" is common and can be achived easily using digital processing techniques. Note that here the DSP adds colour to a colourless (ie transparent) amplifier - it adds distortion. If anyone likes that distortion best then they still cannot claim that a valve amp is better than a solid state amp, it's just "different" and certainly cannot be called "transparent". Valve is more transparent in the mid/highs than solid state: you'll hear extreme highs details that you'll not hear with solid state. This is a good illustration of the difference between theories and experiment. Anyway, if, according to you, one can't claim that something sounds better than something else, you should not discuss anymore about Hifi. Edited by oliverstoned - September 12 2011 at 09:34 |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 12 2011 at 06:25 |
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Her's the heart of the problem with you, you said it yourself:
"I find the arrogance of untrained amateur audiophilists knowing better than qualified professional audio design engineers mildly insulting" It's an ego issue You're insulting me and the audiophiles as well by saying that we're ripped off by companies selling us unuseful accessories. I've tested the slightest modification or accessory added to my system before buying anything; i'd neverinvest any euro if i can't hear a real difference. So i could feel very insulted by your speech. I'm not rich nor crazy nor snob and i've got good hearing as well. One time i bought a "Siltech" (a dutch cable's brand) power cable to feed my subwoofer. This power cable completly changed my sound but in a bad way: it lowered my low end to the point i had to sell it back and change for another cable and now i have a powerful bass again. Al that to say that power cables (among other things) affect sound, sometimes in a bad way. More info on power theory: http://www.shunyata.com/Content/ac_overview.html Another example is the day i brought a nice power cable ("Wireworld") to my father-in-law in order to try on his system an he was very skeptic about it. I plugged the cable on his integrated amp instead of the stock one. He admited he heard the difference and was puzzled but didn't want to BELIEVE; you'd have the same reaction. Edited by oliverstoned - September 12 2011 at 07:33 |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 12 2011 at 07:05 |
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Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra
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These outstanding, musical products have enhanced our recordings and made it easier for our musicians to hear the detail of their instruments!" -- Peter Poltun, Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra Top -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Grammy Winning Mastering Engineers James Guthrie and Doug Sax The reputations of Mastering Engineers Doug Sax and James Guthrie are beyond reproach. They are two of the most prolific and sought after mastering engineers in the recording industry, and their body of work is legendary. Doug Sax's work includes recordings by James Taylor, Pink Floyd, Dire Straits, Alison Kraus, Diana Krall, Linda Ronstadt, Tom Waits, Aaron Neville, Chris Isaak, Ray Charles, Chet Atkins and countless others. James Guthrie's resume is no less impressive, having been credited with work on 6 Pink Floyd albums and dozens of popular recording artists. 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The Anaconda PowerSnakes, for example, have transformed our Sonoma system, used during the mastering process for the new 5.1 mix of 'The Dark Side of The Moon'. I look forward to trying the Hydra AC distribution next. Highly recommended." -- James Guthrie, Grammy award winning Producer/Engineer (Pink Floyd) Top -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SkyWalker Sound (Lucas Films) Easily one of the most complete and lavish film and recording studios in the world, SkyWalker Ranch needs little introduction. SkyWalker Sound is the division of SkyWalker Ranch responsible for all audio, sound-effects, post production audio, IMAX sound and multi-format audio. SkyWalker sound has garnered 14 Academy Awards since its inception, as well as multiple media awards for quality and sound innovation. SkyWalker Sound is also a complete scoring and recording studio that records renowned artists such as Amy Grant, Herbie Hancock, Faith Hill and countless others. 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We now use the Hydra's on our Model 2 converters, AES router and main monitor system consisting of B&W 802 speakers and Chord Amps.“ -- Clayton Wood, Senior Engineer: SkyWalker Sound Top -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Grammy Winning Record Producer Rick Rubin As a multiple Grammy winning music producer of recording artists such as Tom Petty, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Johnny Cash, Jay Hawks, Neil Diamond, Public Enemy and many others, Rick Rubin has earned his reputation as the most versatile and gifted producer working in the music and recording industry. Rick Rubin encountered Shunyata Research products in many rooms at the CES trade exhibits in 2004, and inquired about an evaluation. After extensive testing and comparisons, Rick adopted Shunyata Research's products for use in his home listening, testing and recording systems. Rick remains one of the most outspoken advocates for Shunyata Research products within the studio and recording community. "Shunyata Research power cables and interconnects made a remarkable difference in my reference system. The PowerSnakes power cables added effortless muscularity, control and wide-open clarity to the amps driving my speakers. These are not subtle tweaks. I would guess the amps sound 15 percent better -- a far bigger difference than any speaker cables have made and in many cases, as unbelievable as it may seem, a greater improvement than changing the whole front end. I could not recommend them highly enough." -- Rick Rubin, Grammy winning Record Producer Top -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Astoria Studio (Pink Floyd) Located in the United Kingdom, Astoria Studio is widely recognized as one of the most respected recording studios in the world. Owned by David Gilmour of Pink Floyd, Astoria has served as recording venue to some of the most renowned recording artists in the music industry. Anyone familiar with the state-of-the-art production values on Dark Side Of The Moon, Wish You Were Here, Animals, The Wall, Momentary Lapse of Reason, The Division Bell, and David Gilmour in Concert 2002 DVD, can appreciate the meticulous nature with which the Pink Floyd albums are put together. Astoria Studio's principles are renowned for reviewing every aspect of their recording chain continually. It was this perfectionist approach that led Astoria to seek out and implement Shunyata Research's Hydra power distribution systems, PowerSnakes power cables and Aeros Series signal cables to their state-of-the-art recording equipment. Astoria's principle engineers actively endorse Shunyata Research products to other studios and mastering engineers and have paved the way for may subsequent Shunyata studio applications. "We conducted a series of listening test to both the Shunyata cables and the Hydra power conditioner. Our comparison point included both standard mains cables and other esoteric cables. We found that both the Shunyata cables and the Hydra gave the best results by some margin." -- Phil Taylor, Studio Manager: Astoria Studio, UK "We were particularly impressed with the sense of phase coherence that Shunyata products delivered, giving noticeably better imaging, depth and clarity. We tried many different areas of our signal path, all benefited. With digital sources it was almost as if we had switched from 44.1k/16 bit to 96k/ 24 bit. We now run all our analogue machines, workstations and the mixing console from the Shunyata equipment." -- Andy Jackson, Senior Mastering Engineer: Astoria Studio. UK Top -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sony Music (New York) Mastering Sony Music in New York is one of the United States most respected recording, mastering and post-production studios. Sony Music's Mastering icons Vlado Meller and Steven Epstein thoroughly tested Shunyata Research products with their Recording and Mastering systems and were immediately impressed with the significant reduction in background noise. Both Vlado Meller and Steven Epstien have since added Shunyata Research products as a part of their mastering and sound check systems. "I have personally evaluated the Hydra power conditioning system along with your PowerSnakes power cables. I was very impressed with the results. Shunyata Research products are now part of my equipment set up. Especially, with my 2 track tape machines, the sound with your system was definitely more transparent and clear. I would highly recommend Shunyata Research products to any professional audio/video facility." -- Vlado Meller, Senior Mastering Engineer: Sony Music Studios, New York Top -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DMP Records, President Tom Jung Since 1983 DMP has been producing the finest quality recordings for jazz lovers and audiophiles alike working with seminally gifted, but under appreciated musicians. In a world of over compressed and over processed recordings, DMP's live-minimalists recording approach captures critical nuances and natural dynamics using the most direct and pristine electronic signal path possible. The result is a refreshing and honest representation of great musicians playing music together in the same room at the same time. "I have been very skeptical of power related tweaks above and beyond good basic engineering practices like wire sizing, proper grounding and good solid connections. That said I tried to be open to the merits of the Shunyata approach regarding power management. After living with various power cables, outlets and Hydra AC distribution systems for several months while working on my DMP Archive Project, I can honestly say that Shunyata Power Systems do contribute to a more solid, focused and accurate sonic picture." -- Tom Jung, President: Digital Music Products Inc. Top -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Stephen Epstein: 12 Time Grammy Winning Record Producer Stephen Epstein is one of the most recognizable names in the professional recording industry. His stellar talents are showcased with Classical recording legends such as Yo Yo Ma, Wynton Marsalis, Isaac Stern, Itzhak Perlman, Placido Domingo and countless others. He has earned a near record total of 12 Grammy awards, 6 for Classical Producer Of The Year. Stephen became aware of Shunyata Research products because of fellow record producers and mastering engineer at Sony music New York, Vlado Meller. Stephen contacted Shunyata Research directly to inquire about an evaluation. The products performed as expected and Stephen purchased an entire power distribution system. "For many years, I've tried and tested power conditioners by major manufacturers with varying results. I'm pleased to say that I can now put my search for the elusive optimal AC conditioner to rest. The Hydra Model-8 and Hydra Model-2 power conditioners coupled with Shunyata's power cables have provided me with an extremely clean and transparent foundation by which I can check and approve test pressings with full confidence." -- Steven Epstein, 12 time Grammy winner 6 time Grammy winner: "Classical Producer Of The Year” Top -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Phillips' Crest National Studios Located in Hollywood California, Crest National is one of the largest music and film industry studio chains in the United States. Crest National consists of motion picture film labs, digital restoration services, DVD authoring and design, editing, sub-mastering and media encoding, among a host of other professional services. They are a partner of Philips International and remain one of the world's top providers of DVD Audio and CD replication. Due to their exceptional reputation and prolific manufacturing capability, Crest National was selected by Philips to be the only United States SACD replication plant. Crest National's fanatical dedication to quality control led them to construct a state-of-the-art 5.1 channel quality control playback studio. Crest spared no expense to obtain the finest electronics from Halcro (amplifiers), Meitner Labs (switching controls) and Eggleston Works (speakers). Based on the recommendations of top studio executives and mastering engineers, Crest sought out an evaluation of a complete Shunyata Research power and signal cable system. At the conclusion of their testing, Crest purchased Shunyata Research's entire system of power and signal distribution products, and commented on the significant impact Shunyata products had on the resolution of their state of the art system. "I've run out of words to describe the effect Shunyata Research has had on the SACD experience in our studio. From the mass and quality of the Hydra power distribution center with it's dynamic openness, the clarity gleaned from the Anaconda Alpha/Anaconda VX, and the direct detail obtained from the interconnects and speaker cables. Shunyata Research has put a very positive signature on Crest National's, Hollywood reference listening experience." -- Jon Truckenmiller, Sr. VP Engineering: Crest National Studios Top -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Look Out Sound Studios Upon casual inspection, one might wonder whether Look Out Sound Studios was named after its scenic Montana surroundings or its astounding recording facilities. An overview of Lookout's principal mastering and playback systems will make the name far less ambiguous. Look Out owner Brett Allen spared no expense in assembling the finest Direct Stream Digital recording systems and playback equipment in the world. Lookout utilizes the state-of-the-art Genex DSD hard drive systems, as well as the Solid State Logic 9048K XL, the top 5.1 analog mixing console in the world. Look Out sports the finest recording, mastering and playback equipment, including multiple pairs of Wilson Audio's Statement speaker systems, the X2 Alexandrias. Halcro amplification and digital playback systems from Meitner labs complete Look Out's monitor and playback systems. The name Look Out is obviously intended to serve notice that reference-quality recording and mastering is alive and well in Montana. Lookout's Bret Allen was referred to Shunyata Research power-systems by the principals of Halcro, Wilson Audio and VTL, who use Shunyata products within their own testing and playback systems. After extensive tests and comparisons, Look Out Studios purchased an entire series of Shunyata Research power-system products based on the performance they offered within recording and playback systems. "We are using various Shunyata products to further our quest for the best signal path in tracking, mixing, and mastering. The Hydra Model-2 and Hydra Model-6 on various vintage guitar amps and vintage analog keyboards have made a world of difference in clarity and punch. We are using the Python line for our 24-track tape machine, DACs, tube preamps, and tube microphone power supplies. On the power amps we have the Taipan line. Again I have noticed more definition in the transients. Overall I think that Shunyata products are an integral part of taking the critical listening system to the next level." -- Brett Allen, Studio Manager: Look Out Sound Studios Top -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lacquer Channel Mastering (Canada) Considered Canada's premier mastering facility, Lacquer Channel works with many of the world's most renowned recording artists, including U2, Bryan Adams, Holly Cole and many others. These top artists sought out Lacquer Channel because of their reputation as Canada's most well-equipped and professional recording and mastering facility. Lacquer Channel mastering engineer Phil Demetro discovered Shunyata Research products through a local dealer, and discovered that the Hydra and PowerSnakes products significantly improved the resolution of their mastering and playback systems of which they are now a permanent part. Lacquer Channel actively recommends Shunyata products to their contacts in the mastering and recording industries. "After trying numerous top shelf brands of power distribution and IC's for my mastering facility, only the Shunyata Research Hydra's and PowerSnakes remained as a vital part of my signal path and playback system. It's never been so easy to achieve the great sound that I have been striving for -- I no longer have to reach for my equalizers to find space for the details that I now have in spades. Lower noise levels let me get deeper into a mix without sacrificing power to my equipment. No anemic sounds here! Just music that always sounds right. I want to re-master my whole discography now!" -- Phil Demetro, Mastering Engineer: The Lacquer Channel, Toronto Top -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sony Music (Japan) Mastering Facility The name says it all. At the very top level within Sony Music recording and mastering labs, no one is more exacting, more obsessive about sound and performance than the men in charge of their recording and mastering labs. Everything must be perfect, and cost is no object when it comes to recreating music and sound that is true to life. The top Japanese executives from Sony Music were exposed to Shunyata Research products during James Guthrie's re-mastering of Dark Side Of The Moon for SACD at Guthrie's Das Boot Studio. Mastering engineers Guthrie and Doug Sax endorsed Shunyata Research products to the principle executives from Sony Music, and facilitated the loan of Shunyata products for testing within Sony's Mastering systems. After lengthy testing, a series of Shunyata Research power-system products were purchased for use in Sony Music's mastering facilities. All music mastered within Sony Music's Japanese facility is now being mastered using Shunyata Research power-system products. Top -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Memory Technology (Japan) Memory Technology is the largest CD/DVD manufacturer in Japan and one of the largest in the world, with over $100 million annual sales. Memory Technology is part of the largest trading firm in Japan, and also owns and runs music and video production companies. Memory Technology became aware of Shunyata Research products through Japanese Music Industry contact Maiko Nagae. After critical evaluations were performed, Memory Technology ordered Shunyata Research power-system products for use in their top testing and production systems. Top -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter McGrath Peter McGrath is widely recognized as one of the most accomplished recording engineers working in the world today, with a resume of recordings and top recording artists dating back some thirty years. Peter also manages the east coast sales division for premier US speaker manufacturer Wilson Audio. Peter McGrath thoroughly tested Shunyata Research's Hydra power products and found them to significantly enhance the resolution of his playback and recording test systems. Peter continues to use Shunyata's Hydra products in both his home and with his recording work. He considers them indispensable to achieving the best sound possible Top -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- New Jersey Philharmonic Orchestra "To put this into context, I am a trustee of the Philharmonic Orchestra of New Jersey. I have played several instruments and now frequently listen to live jazz and classical instrumental and vocal performances. My goal in a stereo system is to reproduce the actual performance and its environment as closely as possible. I am a skeptic about power cords (and other wirey stuff) and I rely on my ears to tell me what is real. So I plugged the Shunyata power cords (Taipans and Copperheads) into my system, put on a choral disk and sat back anticipating the effort that may be required to hear any subtle difference they might make. I was shocked with amazement. It took no more than listening to the first few bars of the opening chorus to hear the dramatic difference in sound quality these power cords allowed within my system. I tried another disk, same impact, then another, same impact... and they were not even broken in yet. Here is what I heard: The most dramatic effect was an improvement in transduced acoustics. Previously I heard vocal or musical instruments that sounded excellent but were missing something relative to a live performance experience. Now I heard harmonic depth within and between voices and instruments that provide the richness and stage presence of a live performance. Now the individual voices and instruments interact with one another as in real life. Now I easily heard the small echoes, reverberations and other cues (some people call this inner detail) associated with a live performance space that were previously absent. The speed of dynamic changes in percussion instruments (attack) were also improved to better resemble a live performance. All in all, the system now produces an audio hologram that much more closely approximates a live performance. Thanks for your recommendation of this excellent product." -- Doug Munch, New Jersey Philharmonic Orchestra <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>> Source: http://www.shunyata.com/Content/endorsements-Prof.html |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: September 12 2011 at 07:22 |
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From your link: "Snobbery: Digital audio technology has been denigrated since its introduction by a small but fervent group of audiophiles who insist that the sound it produces is "harsh," unlifelike, and generally inferior to that of analog recordings. The revelation that CD sound is imperfect was undoubtedly an appealing story for some of them to spread. " So if digital hurt your ears compared to vinyl, it just means that you're snob. It's the second crime of audiophiles: they're suspected of being rich and snob and abble to afford better gear to achieve better sound. Some people feel jealous and prefer to convince themselves and try to persuade others that it's pure snobism and that sound enhancment is impossible. Edited by oliverstoned - September 12 2011 at 07:26 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 12 2011 at 13:34 |
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It is not "extreme high details" and it certainly is not "transparent". Due to the non-linearity of valve voltage amplification there are harmonic artifacts present in the signals that were not present in the original recording - that is what you are hearing. You think that this is a property of the original recording but it is not. These harmonics are pleasant to hear, very pleasant indeed because they are "in-tune" with the original recording signals - they are (by definition) harmonious, but they are colourisation on the original recording added by the valve amplifier. If what comes out of an amplifer is spectrally differnent to what went in then that is not transparency - transparency is the faithful reproduction of the original signal, with no colourisation and no harmonic distortion.
I'll state again for the record - I love valve amplifiers, I own two and I have built several from scratch over the past 40 years. My initial training in electronics back in the 1970s was using valves, I have worked with valves in radio, radar, audio and even computing applications. I know how valves work and how they are used in many applications, I know their capabilities and their limitations, my knowledge in this area is both theoretical and practical. (yeah, my "ego" has qualifications and I have worked hard at being a knowledgeable expert
 ).
No it is not.
Your "observations" are not "experiment".
I have never claimed this and never will. I provided scientific counter arguments to your unscientific claims.
People are permitted to have a different opinion to you, and they are permitted to state that opinion.
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What?
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: July 24 2008 Location: Big Muddy Status: Offline Points: 5208 |
Posted: September 12 2011 at 13:55 |
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Oliver,
As far as the ego thing goes, and I'm much less experienced than Dean...some of us have spent alot of time working with sound and studying it. Dean also has REAL electronic expertise that clearly you don't have.
There are parts of sound reproduction that are subjective and some are simply facts of physics. You mix these up so often as to be a joke. But you're in a narrow field of knowledge such that most don't know the difference but at least they admit it.
As a guy who spent alot of time learning mixing and a little mastering, where the subtle differnces in the sound of music are essential to the job, some of the things you are saying are just off.
Here's what's likely going on..."Oliver likes the coloration that his system adds to his music." Probably even, "Most people like the coloration that Oliver's system adds to recorded music." It would interesting to try to figure out what those things really are instead of making up words like "clarity" or "definiton" which actually are not what's going on.
Again, people who mix for a living spend a lot of money on truly transparent systems. They do NOT sound "good" to every random listener, precisely because they add absolutely nothing to the source. But they are essential to getting a recording that will work on multiple systems.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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oliverstoned wrote:
