fade out or end

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: thehallway wrote: Who cares? Seriously. The one thing that amazes me about proggers is that they always find something to complain about. You have to get to silence somehow, and I don't understand what's so annoying about a gradual decrease in volume. I care, we are here to express our honest opinions, for me the fade out is anti climatic, while the abrupt end (well used) can boost the climax. Lets remember, even though when Fading out is an old resource, in Rock is mostly used to:  Create a recording solution for pieces of music that contain no obvious ending. When 45 RPM existed, to reduce tracks that were too long in the LP and didn't fit in the limited single format. But this is my opinion. Iván

I just think it's unfair on musicians, and I never knew this until reading this thread, but many many people seem to be happy to dismiss a fade-out as a lazy creative decision, or a quick, unoriginal solution to a problem, that therefore gives the song or the artist less merit.

I've heard very few songs where I've thought the fade-out ruins the piece of music in any way. What's so satisfying about a "final" chord that really improves a piece so much more than a fade?

Some artists may just want a fade-out, maybe because it brings a recognisable sense of closure, maybe because it signals that the music actually has no ending, but that practical reasons obviously prevent us from hearing it go on forever. This is true of jamming, in particular. Sure, it's irritating when an early Beatles single is mid-chorus, and then two seconds later it has faded away....... but I am able to differentiate that decision (the decision of EMI) from a creative decision to gently let the music ease away without ever actually stopping.

thehallway wrote: Prometej wrote: I don't mind fade-out, and I never really quite understood why people get so bent out-of-shape over them.  As long it's not just a sloppily-done afterthought, there's nothing inherently musically offensive about a fade-out to end a song. Exactly. So people, please stop referring to anything that isn't a fade-out as a "proper ending".......... you might as well say that any chord sequences you don't like aren't "proper" chords, or that bad lyrics aren't "proper lyrics". The demand by fans on any music with the word 'progressive' attached to it, which is never attached by the musicians themselves anyway, is getting ridiculously high.

No, I'll still refer to anything with a fade out as a cop out. The main reason I dont like them is that there's nothing remotely interesting about a fade-out, I just cant help wondering "what could have been done there to make it more effective".

And I aply this to all genres of music, why do you assume that I only apply it to prog?

This thread definitely gets my vote for most off the wall concept ever. Clearly it's in the hands on the artist performing or composing the piece to decide how it ends. You may as well apply the same logic to film and say that any director that 'fades to black' is being un-creative because he could have cut to black or used the cheesy 'Spielberg wipe' technique instead. Dumb, dumb, dumb. It is what it is. If fades bug you so much, invest in SoundForge and do your own editing.

sleeper wrote: thehallway wrote: Prometej wrote: I don't mind fade-out, and I never really quite understood why people get so bent out-of-shape over them.  As long it's not just a sloppily-done afterthought, there's nothing inherently musically offensive about a fade-out to end a song. Exactly. So people, please stop referring to anything that isn't a fade-out as a "proper ending".......... you might as well say that any chord sequences you don't like aren't "proper" chords, or that bad lyrics aren't "proper lyrics". The demand by fans on any music with the word 'progressive' attached to it, which is never attached by the musicians themselves anyway, is getting ridiculously high.  No, I'll still refer to anything with a fade out as a cop out. The main reason I dont like them is that there's nothing remotely interesting about a fade-out, I just cant help wondering "what could have been done there to make it more effective". And I aply this to all genres of music, why do you assume that I only apply it to prog?

I don't make that assumption........ but I've seen in this forum the other expectations people make regarding prog music, and this only adds to it........ hence my comment about the high demand on prog. 

As for the question   "what could have been done there to make it more effective?"....... well, that question can be asked about any element or section of a song....... the beginning, middle, or end. Even something seemingly perfect to one person won't please everyone. So, picking on the fade-out in particular seems random, if your only criticism is that there might have been a better way of doing it, because that very well applies to most parts of most songs. ...............And I'm pretty sure that when an artist can answer that question, they proceed to improve their composition. So, what about considering the fact that a fade-out isn't always, without question, evidence of the artist not being able to improve..... but rather that the fade-out may well be the artist's answer to the question. Because unlike you, the artists probable doesn't unconditionally categorise the fade-out as a cop-out, but may see it as a perfectly viable artistic decision, and one that may even improve upon an abrupt or "proper" ending.

It all depends on the song and it really does not bother me.  It is merely a convention like using guitars and keyboards, drums, bass, vocals, the occasional flute and mandolin, whatever.  What I don't like is abrupt endings, like Pull Me Under.  A song can stop with a resolving chord, or a big crescendo, or a fade out.  I like the fade in Supper's Ready.  Horslips ends their album Book of Invasions with a vocal line and a haunting fade that will keep the song in your mind for hours - to end it any other way would diminish it to meaninglessness.  That is not sloppiness or laziness.  We too often fall into the line of thinking that if something is not one thing then it has to be another single thing.  But that's not the case.  A fade out is not a crescendo, nor is it a resolution, nor is it abrupt.  Balck or white thinking always stirs controversy and animosity.

I like fade outs a lot of the time. I don't buy that it's just a way for the song to end without the artist doing any work. It's not hard to end a song. V-I or V-vi if you want to be all deep and stuff. I usually respect is as an aesthetic choice unless the song really doesn't deserve a fade out. Like if it's not epic or if it's not like Bon Iver's "Beth/Rest"....

I despise fadeouts.  I expect it from most people, but there are certain people like Zappa whereI'm almost appalled at hearing a fadeout, knowing he could (and does live) put fantastic endings on all of his songs.  I'd even rather hear a generic ending, because it's less generic than a fadeout.  Especially at the end of an album (if it's the end of a conceptual album then EWWWW)

darkshade wrote: How about when a song fades out, then fades back in again? I don't know how often is has happened in prog rock, but I know some funk and jazz bands have done this; and to great effect. Otherwise, I'd prefer to not have a fade-out. The end of Neal Morse's new album Testimony 2 seemed to have a rare effective fade-out though.

himtroy wrote: I despise fadeouts.  I expect it from most people, but there are certain people like Zappa whereI'm almost appalled at hearing a fadeout, knowing he could (and does live) put fantastic endings on all of his songs.  I'd even rather hear a generic ending, because it's less generic than a fadeout.  Especially at the end of an album (if it's the end of a conceptual album then EWWWW)

It's true, he was a master at writing great endings. The only times he used fade outs, as far as I know, was during his more commercial rock songs, though most of them had proper endings. However, the fade out during the Yellow Snow suite on Apostrophe(') is a little frustrating, especially if you've heard live versions of it where there is an actual ending.

Anyway, he wrote 1000 songs, I let it go for the 4 songs he did with fade outs

Without bothering to read through the entire thread, in at least 9 cases out of 10 when I hear a song fade out I want to shout at the artist 'finish writing the ing thing before you release it!'.