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Slartibartfast 
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Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
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Points: 29630
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 Posted: July 20 2011 at 20:18 |
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Bowie, David Scary Monsters - one of the Bowie must haves for me.
Flood Tales From The Four Seasons - I approved his addition to crossover. Almost too mellow for this site.
Genesis Foxtrot - one of those albums I have long ago lost track of how many times I've listened to it.
Gentle Giant Three Friends - way too short for me. But they did pretty well cover their concept.
Jethro Tull Warchild (Remaster) - kind of funny getting their remasters. I have a box set that has most of the bonus tracks from them.
Khan featuring Steve Hillage & Dave Stewart Space Shanty - very well regarded on this site, but I still find them to be no big deal. More promising when I saw it at the store than it delivered for me I guess.
Oldfield, Sally Flaming Star - all these years before I got this I thought her only solo venture was Waterbearer. Kind of new agey in a good way.
XTC White Music - a hard one to get into since I got on the XTC train at the English Settlement.
Zappa, Frank Tinseltown Rebellion- OK already commented on this a little below.
Edited by Slartibartfast - July 28 2011 at 07:25
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 3449
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Posted: July 22 2011 at 23:39 |
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Well it's in the end disappointing, but the first few songs on Tinseltown still knock me down. Fine Girl/Easy Meat/For the Young Sophisticated are FZ doing what FZ does best, which is play great music and offend some people on the side.
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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Slartibartfast
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Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 23 2011 at 08:36 |
 jammun wrote:
Well it's in the end disappointing, but the first few songs on Tinseltown still knock me down. Fine Girl/Easy Meat/For the Young Sophisticated are FZ doing what FZ does best, which is play great music and offend some people on the side. |
It's a fine album and would probably poke it around if it died down. The easily offended should stay away from FZ as he really didn't give a damn about who he offended. For me his crassness is part of the appeal, but that alone would not be sufficient. Combine it with good music and you have a winning combination. Kind of a letdown after Sheik Yerbouti and Joe's Garage. I also put You Are What You Is above it. One of my standard jokes is that Disco Volante is the only disco album in my collection. I think TR qualifies, perhaps better.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 26 2011 at 06:58 |
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Barrett, Syd Opel - I would have passed on this one if I had tried before I buyed.
Beatles, The Beatles, The - an essential Beatles album. I really like that they took a double album as an opportunity to explore a lot of different styles.
Buckethead Funnel Weaver - why oh why did I go on a Buckethead binge? This is one I could have passed on.
Djam Karet A Night For Baku - in less than thirty days after this arrived I had pretty much the whole catalog in my collection.
Frith, Fred clearing - solo guitar, the way no guitar has been played before, seriously physically speaking.
Gentle Giant Gentle Giant - this one is a gold medal winning debut.
Glass, Philip & Kronos Quartet Dracula - I really need to hear this in context of the movie. The soundtrack by itself is a bit of a bore. Most of Glass's works that are also part of a visual piece are better enjoyed with the visuals.
Nine Inch Nails Fragile, The - the Trentzters double album spectacular before taking a big break.
Oregon In Performance - an excellent live performance. I got to see them live not too long after this album came out.
Primus Miscellaneous Debris - I begin to understand why I took to this band so much when I hear them covering stuff I like.
Edited by Slartibartfast - August 01 2011 at 19:52
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Slartibartfast
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Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 28 2011 at 06:59 |
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Amos, Tori Welcome To Sunny Florida - a DVD with an EP in a CD case. Where the hell am I supposed to put it? Primus did this to us, too. Great show from the Scarlett's walk tour. Too bad David Torn was only on the studio album.
Davis, Miles Miles In The Sky - there are Miles albums that wow me and many that are merely alright. Changes were about.
Eno, Brian-David Byrne My Life in the Bush of Ghosts (Remaster) - interestingly enough they expanded the CD and left off one of the original tracks Qu'Ran.
Hancock, Herbie Head Hunters - a lot of fun.
King Crimson Vroom - really should resist temptation to buy these EPs that have too much of the material that is about to come on in a regular release, still sometimes you can't resist.
Muffins, The Double Negative - these guys had to quit making music to pay the bills. Damn shame but a good thing they came back.
Praxis Warszawa - yowsa.
Santana Welcome - even though the S man reached a pinnacle of prog in Caravanserai, there's plenty to love here if uh, you're devoted, and uhm surrender.
Edited by Slartibartfast - August 01 2011 at 20:17
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: July 28 2011 at 20:59 |
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Black Mountain Black Mountain - these guys are fairly new but the sounds are fairly old and actually I like this better than the bands who did the styles they have co-opted.
Coryell, Larry & Alphonse Mouzon Back Together Again - OK the title track is a little cheesy but when the instrumentals are really good they are really good.
Debussy, Claude Achille La Mer, Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun, Nuages, etc. - I don't have a lot of classical in my collection, but I gots to has my Claudes.
Emerson, Lake, and Palmer Return of Manticore, The Disc Two - with a box set like this it's really tempting not get the new remasters but I probably will at some point.
Gryphon Red Queen To Gryphon Three - a fairly recent addition to my CD collection though I've known about them for some time. Had to rectify that with this one.
Marillion Marbles - having been following this band for a few albums I am surprised when bigger fans get overly opinionated about them. I think this one is worthy of the higher regard it gets.
Metheny, Pat with Dave Holland & Roy Haynes question and answer- I guess it would help if I actually knew what the question and answer was. Basic Methenyfied jazz.
Edited by Slartibartfast - August 01 2011 at 20:32
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Slartibartfast
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Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
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Points: 29630
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Posted: July 31 2011 at 15:36 |
Badalamenti, Angelo Lost Highway - yep I had to put this one in the truck player for the commute. Really not something you can crank up on your work computer.  Worth having in particular for songs that weren't used in the soundtrack. Burton, Gary & Stephane Grappelli Paris Encounter - nice basic mellow jazz album. Claypool, Les Frog Brigade Live Frogs - Set 1 - the gateway drug for me to Primus. Coryell, Larry Tricycles - seem to be coming up with an interesting dispersion of jazz albums that don't really excite me in the random draws. This would be one of them. I need to put together a playlist of these and run it on shuffle in order to challenge myself to figure out which one is is from which album as they shuffle by. Husband, Gary Things I See, The - so the drummer who worked with Holdsworth takes tracks from that era and turns them into reinterpreted piano pieces. Cool. zincs, the dimmer - the CD for this mysteriously disappeared a few years ago. I think it was bumped off by the Zappa albums or something. Nobody else gets to be at the end of the collection, take that! Opening act for Stereolab one year. File it under I don't where to file it, possibly crossover prog. The vocalist has a style similar to David Sylvian and that Crash Test Dummies guy (sorry I forgot his name, he's one one of my Joe Jackson albums for a song).
Edited by Slartibartfast - August 02 2011 at 19:00
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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SaltyJon
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Points: 28772
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Posted: July 31 2011 at 18:34 |
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Mmm, I like that Live Frogs set.
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Slartibartfast
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Joined: April 29 2006
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Points: 29630
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Posted: August 01 2011 at 19:30 |
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I got into Primus after that Frogs.
Code Talkers, The with Col. Bruce Hampton Bootleg Live - got this one as a freebie at the sports bar/music bar where they were playing about two weeks before 9/11/2001. The club has closed. Shame it was within walking distance of my house. Then again it wasn't a really good venue for music, but I've been in worse. "All you need are dreams and a little bit of faith and my ferry boat will take you away..."
Coryell, Larry Comin' Home - basic jazz, nothing special.
Dunmall, Paul Octet Great Divide - jazz, but something more interesting and avant.
Jethro Tull Nightcap - had to get this one for the Disaster re assembly. The tracks on the second disc from later era Tull are OK but not as impressive.
Nektar Remember the Future - the first CD issue of this had a serious mix flaw at the beginning. This is a proper remaster. Essential Nektar.
Radiohead Pablo Honey - the last song shows a progressive direction. The rest of the album is OK. I've even come to terms with Creep, which certainly put me off to the band for all the airplay it got. Now I kinda like it.
Various More for Your Pleasure: A Tribute to Roxy Music - alas not quite as good as some other mixed artist prog artist tribute albums I have.
Wakeman, Rick 1984 - dreadful. The music is just wrong for the novel. I don't think they'd have to torture Winston, just make him listen to this album over and over. How many fingers am I holding up? One and it's the middle one. The Eurythmics sound track for the move captured the spirit much much better. Of interest, I mail ordered this one used and it took forever to get here to the point I had forgotten about it. When it did show up it came from a seller in Russia. The package had some cool stamps and was hand made. Inside wrapping the CD was used typing paper that had Cyrillic typing on it. The CD itself was either made especially for distribution behind the iron curtain or is a pirate copy.
Weather Report Mysterious Traveller - one of their better ones most would agree.
Edited by Slartibartfast - August 03 2011 at 23:08
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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SaltyJon
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Points: 28772
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Posted: August 01 2011 at 19:33 |
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Went the other way for me...got into Frogs via Primus, and got into prog via that Frogs...Thela Hun Ginjeet really grabbed my attention.
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Slartibartfast
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Joined: April 29 2006
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Posted: August 01 2011 at 20:36 |
Having known THG for a while I was like hmm, interesting. (Not in a bad way mind you.) The song that grabbed me was Riddles I think that was the one AOL radio was playing on their progressive streaming station when they had one  a few years back.
Edited by Slartibartfast - August 02 2011 at 06:00
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Slartibartfast
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Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: August 02 2011 at 19:31 |
Colonel Claypool's Bucket of Bernie Brains Big Eyeball in the Sky, The - I got the hat, sticker, and t-shirt for this album. Unfortunately they don't make them anymore. The hat was ruined in the flood and the truck was totaled a few months after the flood. The t-shirt is still in working order.  Hedges, Michael Road to Return, The - I'm not generally as much of fan of the tracks he sings on but Follow Through is one my favorites. Premiata Forneria Marconi Storia Di Un Minuto - one of their essential album to be sure. Rush A Farewell to Kings - one of two Rush albums I have. I figured you can't have one Cygnus without the other. Rypdal, Terje Waves - Rypdal's album covers have a way of capturing the mood of the music better than I can put into words. Summers, Andy-Robert Fripp I Advanced Masked - this was the album that actually got me to check out the Police closer despite their popularity. Tangerine Dream Encore - look out!!! Synthesizers galore. Tibbetts, Steve Northern Song - after his first two albums Steve's music just wasn't as much fun. Still a good album. Way, Darryl Under the Soft - mellow instrumental album.
Edited by Slartibartfast - August 06 2011 at 09:45
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Slartibartfast
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Joined: April 29 2006
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Points: 29630
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Posted: August 03 2011 at 22:36 |
Music is kind of like the lottery except I win almost every time I spend money on it. So today I added another shelving unit, 17" x 44". I think at my current rate it will give me room for growth for a few years. Did my ongoing move the month olds out of the carrying case into the 50 disc CD changer and put the ones they replace on the shelf with the main collection. Miles Davis Get Up With It bumped into Miles Davis Big Gun in the changer. Corea, Chick Miroslav Vitous Roy Haynes Trio Music - basic jazz. Davis, Miles Quiet Nights - basic bossa-nova flavored jazz. Fripp, Robert Radiophonics - I don't know, sometimes Fripp's things like this were probably more fun if you were there. High Llamas, The Buzzle Bee - sometimes sappy Stereolab related band. Led Zeppelin Coda - not quite as good as it would have been if they had had another album in them. Metheny, Pat Watercolors - earthy Meth is best. Morse, Steve Prime Cuts - normally I stay away from compilations but I made an exception. Phillips, Anthony Geese & the Ghost, The - Anthony has to be one of the most prolific ex-Genesis guys. One of his best. Stewart, Dave/Barbara Gaskin Up From the Dark - not one of their best, but an interesting set of covers anyway.
Edited by Slartibartfast - August 06 2011 at 09:54
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Slartibartfast
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Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: August 07 2011 at 06:35 |
Big batch for Monday: Bach, Johann Sebastian Brandenburg Concertos Nos. 1-3 - a friend brought over the whole set one evening when it was snowing, now this piece(s) will always remind of snow. Bowie, David Man Who Sold the World, The - not a huge fan of earlier Bowie but I got this one for the title track. Buckethead Giant Robot - one Mr. Head's better ones. Dixie Dregs Dregs of the Earth - gotta love an album with a song called I'm Freaking Out. First one with T Lavitz on keys. Emerson, Lake, and Palmer Return of Manticore, The Disc Three - the box set covers the body of ELP fairly well despite having stuff off Black Moon and only one of the best two tracks off of Love Beach. Gorishankar, The 2nd Hands - a pleasant discovery here I must say. Ups my number of albums dominated by Russian musicians up to two. Hassell, Jon Surgeon of the Nightsky Resores Dead Things ..., The - had this one for quite a while, still doesn't make a strong impression on me. Hellborg + Buckethead + Shrieve Octave of the Holy Innocents - I was on a bit of a Buckehead binge when I found this one online. With Hellborg and Shrieve, what could go wrong? Not a damn thing. Mahavishnu Orchestra Visions of the Emerald Beyond - the first MO to go into my collection. I don't care what those who idolize the first lineup think, this one and Apocalypse for certain are equally as good. Monade Monstre Cosmic - Stereolab offshoot. I liked the last one a little better. no-man together we're stranger - I need to go back and revisit this again. Overdosed on Bowness. Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon - odd that this one marks the spot where I decided to log in the date I got the disc. Rhodes, Happy Building The Colossus - I've explored the whole discography from front to back but not everything inbetween. There are no duds here or there or anywhere. Stewart, Dave/Barbara Gaskin Spin - The Big Idea was a hard one to top. They do really good covers but the original bits are better. XTC Testimonial Dinner, A (Various Artists) - Sarah McLauchlan does XTC, I couldn't resist. The other artists, including Joe Jackson. And then there's the Terry And The Lovemen track, which I believe is XTC doing another alter ego. room for two more: Beatles, The Yellow Submarine - well, if you ever needed an example of classical being separated from rather than well integrated into the music, here you are. Sancious, David and Tone Transformation (The Speed of Love) - you never know where David might show up. Showing up as the front name, you get to hear hear him directing the music rather than just being an accompanist. 500 left to go so I have made it to through about two thirds of my collection. 
Edited by Slartibartfast - August 16 2011 at 21:31
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: August 09 2011 at 19:43 |
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Anderson, Jon Deseo - I don't know, but after Patric Moraz's i, Jon's ventures into areas south of the hemisphere from me just can't touch that.
Blue October Foiled
Blue October History For Sale - these guys were a BMG record club try out. Foiled came as an automatic delivery but I decided to keep it. The main vocalist sounds like Phil Collins, which can be a bad or a good thing. The music was interesting enough for me to get the second one listed.
Cobham, Billy Spectrum - classic JRF.
Eno, Brian Drop, The - got it when it came out and it was a bit of a disappointment. Dull and cold. I was expecting something more intense and beautiful and soundtrack like.
Frech Frith Kaiser Thompson Live, Love, Larf & Loaf - these guys second album came into my collection well before this one and I still like better. This one would drive coherency freaks crazy, but doesn't the title have great aLliteration...
Gabriel, Peter So - sometimes I wonder if Pete embraced the '80's sound or was more of a trendsetter.
Incredible Expanding Mindf**k Arcadia Son - gotta love a Wilson project on here where you don't dare type it's real name. Well, my mind wasn't completely f**ked, but Politician was a lot of fun. Pair that up with that Aphrodite's Song track...
Manzanera, Phil/801 Live At Manchester University - didn't quite have the magic or the same lineup of musicians as the better known cousin.
Metheny, Pat & Lyle Mays As Falls Wichita, So Falls Wichita Falls - prime Metheny.
Mitchell, Joni Blue - Mitchell in less interesting times.
Pink Floyd Orchestral Maneuvers - run like hell just isn't quite right orchestrated.
Reich, Steve Proverb/Nagoya Marimbas/City Life - Reich and roll (not really).
Umphrey's McGee Local Band Does O.K. - local band does more than OK. Doesn't look all that prog from the CD packaging. Many gems on this one.
Edited by Slartibartfast - August 23 2011 at 06:39
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Slartibartfast
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Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: August 12 2011 at 06:34 |
Eluvium Lambent Material - I got into this artist because a sampler because of sampler included in an Explosions In The Sky order. Howard, Hayward, Frith, Laswell Meridiem - got this for Frith and Laswell. Not really thrilled with the vocalist, who is really at the head of this album. Howe, Steve Quantum Guitar - if I had to describe Steve's solo albums as a group, they're all good. I'm having a hard time coming up with more words. Mangione, Chuck Live at the Hollywood Bowl - hadn't added any Chuck since the LP age. I felt it was time to rectify that and this album fit the bill. Passport Talk Back - well it was cheap and used and came out in the late '80's. I'd throw this one back if I could, not bad for pop jazz, but pales in comparison to their '70's stuff. Phideaux Chupacabras - I think I made a mistake by adding so many Phideaux albums at one time that I didn't fully get to appreciate each on their own merits. Still an impressive set of music and not a dud in the bunch. Tuck & Patti Paradise Found - kind of describes the relationship with wife. Probably too lite jazzy for most prog rockers tastes. Umphrey's McGee Anchor Drops - another fine album from another one of those artists I collected too quickly. Yes Yes Album, The (Remaster) - Rick Wakeman's best Yes album, also some fine guitar work from Peter Banks. 
Edited by Slartibartfast - August 23 2011 at 06:59
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Slartibartfast
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Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: August 15 2011 at 19:34 |
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Happy the Man Beginnings - of the two prequels to their first official release, this one is better.
King Crimson Lizard - still not quite reaching the level of greatness of the debut. For me that wouldn't come until Larks, but I wouldn't be without the intervening three studio albums.
New Order Low Life - got this for the instrumental I heard on a college radio station. Saw it available on CD and got another copy. The only NO album I've ever tried. Very '80's.
Ozric Tentacles Strangeitude - another good album amongst a huge discography.
Praxis Transmutatuion (Mutatis Mutandis) - Praxis is more interesting in theory than in practice, still I have three of theirs.
Reich, Steve Another Look At Counterpoint - I was on a bit of a Reich roll for a while but haven't added anything for a few years since. No particular reason.
Residents, The Demons Dance Alone Limited Edition - got this one after Animal Lover reignited my interest in them. Don't like it as much as that one, but the LE is a nice package.
Talisma Corpus - the first album by a band that should be better known around here.
Zappa, Frank/The Mothers of Invention Uncle Meat - didn't really need the movie excerpt on this one, but the rest is good.
Edited by Slartibartfast - September 07 2011 at 20:26
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Slartibartfast
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Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: August 18 2011 at 06:59 |
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Coryell, Larry & The Eleventh House At Montreaux - nice live set, too short.
Fleck, Bela & the Flecktones Outbound - interesting set of guests on this one.
High Llamas, The Hawaii - this album really doesn't remind me of Hawaii.
Nektar Book of Days - seemed like we were promised this one for a long time before it finally came out. More of a return to form than the first two new Nektars, which weren't bad.
Ponty, Jean-Luc Open Mind - his '80's albums tend to run together a bit for me.
Stereolab Aluminum Tunes - another fine collection of unreleased material or EP and singles.
Triumvirat Illusions On A Double Dimple (Remaster) - of their best albums, this one seems the least imitative of ELP.
Wyatt, Robert Cuckooland - once bitten by Shleep, I pretty much get his new stuff right when it comes out and never disappointed.
Zappa, Frank/The Mothers of Invention We're Only In It for the Money - a parody of Sgt. Pepper without just copying the songs and giving them new lyrics. Lots of great lines.
Edited by Slartibartfast - September 07 2011 at 20:36
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Slartibartfast
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Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
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Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: August 22 2011 at 19:05 |
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Davis, Miles Birth of the Cool - sometimes you have to stretch out of your comfort level. Jazz of that day and age certainly does that. What in the hell is Darn That Dream doing on this album? One of these things is not like the other...
Focus Focus III - shouldn't Focus II have been a double album instead? Just sayin'. I still can't believe I heard Sylvia playing on the grocery store sound system recently.
Kayak Merlin - shame they put out only half a good concept album on was for a long time their last album. Still haven't heard the new full album version, but I have the DVD.
King Crimson Three of a Perfect Pair - still not topping Discipline.
Mahavishnu Orchestra Lost Trident Sessions, The - oddly enough the music wasn't lost, showing up on a live MO album and Goodman/Hammer.
Moody Blues, The In Search of the Lost Chord - hands down for me their best. At times very '60's and also often transcendent.
O'Hagan, Sean High Llamas - precursor the band of the same name.
Ozric Tentacles Erpland - one thing I must say about the guys, the music is great to listen to at work when you need to move into high gear.
Steely Dan Citizen Steely Dan: 1972 -1980 Disc 1 - never felt the need to get any of their albums but when the box set came out I made the leap.
Yes Tales from Topographic Oceans - kind of the next logical step in the evolution of Yes music - their first double album. Critics can go to hell as far as I care, it's a damn fine album throughout.
Edited by Slartibartfast - September 07 2011 at 20:48
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Slartibartfast
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Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: August 23 2011 at 06:27 |
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Brand X Masques - not all of the original line up but the music is still great. The greatness factor kind of wore off a little with Product and Do They Hurt? though I still like them.
Free Flight Beyond the Clouds - a slightly more commercial effort than The Jazz/Classical Union, still good.
Jackson, Joe Night and Day II - great sequel album.
King Crimson USA (30th Anniversary Edition) - I really wasn't in a big hurry to get this on CD even though it has that one jam song that isn't available elsewhere. The bonus tracks finally tipped it for me and I think were sorely missing from the original LP.
Marillion This Strange Engine - by this time I was pretty much a get the new album whenever it came out for these guys. I don't know why but the magic has started to wear off with more recent albums.
no-man flowermouth - I was surprised to see the guests on this one. Good testament to Wilson-Bowness that they could attract them.
Tears for Fears Hurting, The - these guys exhibited some proggy influences. Managed to do a really dark album. And using mellotron.
Wyatt, Robert Old Rottenhat - great politico-prog.
Edited by Slartibartfast - September 07 2011 at 20:56
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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