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Progosopher View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 17:50
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
as Bowie says in All The Young Dudes; "My Brother's back at home with his Beatles and his Stones, we never got it off on that revolution stuff, what a drag, too many snags" - there was an age gap, and younger siblings never listened to the music of their older brothers and sisters - the listening range was two to three years for each type of artist regardless of whether they were Pop, Rock or Underground. [/QUOTE]
 
I can attest to this.  My sister was six years older than me and into Elton John, The Beach Boys, and The Beatles when I was listening to Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Rainbow, and Black Sabbath.  I used to hate her tastes in music, but these artists I have come to enjoy and respect. Clap  I can't say the same about The Bay City Rollers, though. Sick
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 16:24
M@x has wisely chosen to be quite inclusive for the bands he lists here.  It is up to you how you define prog.  I define it as a genre.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 16:14
Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

As much as I was weaned on Sabbath up to Technical Ecstasy, I  was very surprised to see them on PA as 'Prog Related' - hugely influential on heavy rock and metal yes, but the discernible Sabbath elements that can be found in some fully fledged prog are simply those same heavy rock and metal ingredients that Prog musicians and fans happen to like. You're married to your wife but you ain't related to her....(I hopeEmbarrassed)

true but at the time Sabbath was very much a progressive - or progressing - rock band; early metal itself was a form of progressive rock in the sense that it came out of the psych/blues movement and was indulging in longer, more complex ideas with arty imagery.  As well, I believe Prog Related doesn't always indicate influence on, but participation in, the progression of rock as art (but that's my interpretation of a vague category)
It is so easy to confuse progressive music as a genre with progressive music as an attitude.


To be fair I think David(Atavachron) concedes by implication that 'Prog' has never been a freestanding genre c/f Reggae, Blues, Metal, Rap, Techno, Jazz etc and that the only demarcation criteria we can use for artists on PA might just boil down to them having a demonstrably progressive attitude towards their music's development.

BTW I'm assuming by 'progressive music' you mean what we call 'Prog? (e.g. Ornette Coleman is clearly progressive music but it ain't Prog)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 15:59
Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

Originally posted by Warthur Warthur wrote:

I wasn't too impressed with ELO's debut - some of the Beatles homage seemed to sail dangerously close to plagiarism to my mind - but I really like Eldorado.

Same with me. I think El Dorado is their best album, but after that, they took a more commercial approach to their music, and I eventually lost interest in the band .
Honestly, ELO was one of those few bands that became more interesting after selling out.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 15:58
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

Where does one draw the line though? I could argue that Grand Funk Railroad probably deserve to be represented here as they were the US's answer to Black Sabbath etc and their music (their older music) definately wasn't mainstream back then.
I have accepted that but am still very bitter about the fact that Stratovarius isn't represented on the Site and the arguments will always be - if they are represented then how come another is not.
Never in my wildest dreams would I place ELO amongst my own personal progressive collection. They were categorised as pop music back in the day and I personally agree with that.
The Beatles are here yet the Rolling Stones aren't?
I'm not saying that the Stones should be here but if the one is given exposure how come not the other when they were so closely related back in the day. One was the antithesis almost of the other.
As I said - where do we draw the line?
 
 
It's all in how you define prog.  You can define prog as a genre, or as in attitude challenging the conventions of a genre, or as including a few stylistic elements that contribute to progressive music.
 
It'd be hard to include the Stones unless you went to the third and weakest definition.  But that's how Jefferson Airplane got in, so don't be surprised if it happens.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 15:54
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

As much as I was weaned on Sabbath up to Technical Ecstasy, I  was very surprised to see them on PA as 'Prog Related' - hugely influential on heavy rock and metal yes, but the discernible Sabbath elements that can be found in some fully fledged prog are simply those same heavy rock and metal ingredients that Prog musicians and fans happen to like. You're married to your wife but you ain't related to her....(I hopeEmbarrassed)

true but at the time Sabbath was very much a progressive - or progressing - rock band; early metal itself was a form of progressive rock in the sense that it came out of the psych/blues movement and was indulging in longer, more complex ideas with arty imagery.  As well, I believe Prog Related doesn't always indicate influence on, but participation in, the progression of rock as art (but that's my interpretation of a vague category)
It is so easy to confuse progressive music as a genre with progressive music as an attitude.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 15:52
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

I suppose I'm most shocked that Black Sabbath is listed here.
me2


me 3. As much as I was weaned on Sabbath up to Technical Ecstasy, I  was very surprised to see them on PA as 'Prog Related' - hugely influential on heavy rock and metal yes, but the discernible Sabbath elements that can be found in some fully fledged prog are simply those same heavy rock and metal ingredients that Prog musicians and fans happen to like. You're married to your wife but you ain't related to her....(I hopeEmbarrassed)

I also grew up listening to and loving the Who*, Queen, John Cale and Talking Heads but really couldn't make any sort of cogent argument for any of them being Prog Related but hey ho, the more good artists we have on PA the better I guess.

*Ok maybe Tommy and Quadrophenia means they can go the ball but their toes looks awfully cramped in those slippers Big smile
I was for The Who's inclusion based upon Entwistle's pervasive influence and their tendency to go for epic compositions.  I did not object to Queen's inclusion either.  Another thing that surprises me is that bands with even better reasons for inclusion in related or proto get rejected due to the prejudices of certain people.  I have Boston in mind here, although the long time that it took to get Todd Rundgren in is another instance.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 14:59
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

I remember being almost ostracised for my music taste in school for enjoying Yes, Floyd, Sabbath, Heep etc, - the other kids had the Stones, Donny Osmond, David Cassidy, the Beatles and later Kiss emblazened on their school bags etc.
It was almost as if my preferences added a kind of mystique to me and my mates - lol.
It was so easy to categorise music back then - Underground, Pop, Jazz or Classical.
The pop lovers were a different breed to the Underground music lovers.
Later it became Rock, Metal, Punk, Disco, Jazz and Classical.
Now - Holy Moly - Progarchives alone has more categories than their were types of music back then.
 
Trying not to be rude here, you're too young to make such generalisations Dave, and even though I'm 3 years older, I'm also a year or two too young aswell. Any kid in the 70s with Osmonds and Cassidy on their school bag would never have listened to The Stones, Beatles or Kiss ... as Bowie says in All The Young Dudes; "My Brother's back at home with his Beatles and his Stones, we never got it off on that revolution stuff, what a drag, too many snags" - there was an age gap, and younger siblings never listened to the music of their older brothers and sisters - the listening range was two to three years for each type of artist regardless of whether they were Pop, Rock or Underground. Access to music was similarily restricted to very narrow time spans, unless it was extremely sucessful an album released in 1969 would have been deleted from the catalogues by 1972, which made true underground music extremely difficult to obtain - take something like Capability Brown or Clouds - if you didn't buy it within 6 months of it being released then you'd never have seen it in the record shops. Even ELO's (very Prog) 1971 debut was nigh on impossible to find by the time they hit the big time with A New World Record in 1976
 
Similarily among kids that were into Progressive Rock (and yes, in England in 1970-76 that's exactly what we called it, just because it took the rest of the world 6 to 30 years to catch-up it's not our fault) and Underground music there was a hireachy of cool that would never have put Yes, Floyd, Sabbath and Heep into the same bag either. Groups of kids that were into one type of Underground music would never countenance their music being compared to another type of Underground music, just as they would never dream of doing that today.
 
Time has blurred our memories - then was no different to now.
 
Your categoraisations from that time are a little vague and not exactly accurate - we had heavy rock, progressive rock, blues rock, progressive blues, psychedelic rock, acid rock, space rock, country rock, techno-rock (I remember Yes being called this and techno-flash at one point), head music, jazz-rock, glam rock, funk-rock, electronic, bubble-rock, stomp rock, pub-rock, etc., etc., etc.
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 11:41
Can't Get it Out of My Head (if that's the official title of that track) is one of the most
amazing songs ever written/engineered/performed.  It has that ghostly quality that
I've only found with some songs like "If You Could Read My Mind" by Lightfoot, or
a few dreamy songs by the Ronettes (seriously, lol).  In prog, I find "The Venture"
by Yes, to have a bit of that quality, and of course, Genesis veers into that territory
often as well.

--
Robert Pearson
Regenerative Music http://www.regenerativemusic.net
Telical Books http://www.telicalbooks.com
ParaMind Brainstorming Software http://www.paramind.net


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 08:49
Originally posted by Warthur Warthur wrote:

I wasn't too impressed with ELO's debut - some of the Beatles homage seemed to sail dangerously close to plagiarism to my mind - but I really like Eldorado.

Same with me. I think El Dorado is their best album, but after that, they took a more commercial approach to their music, and I eventually lost interest in the band .
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 07:01

To many to mention, but im fine with that, all just a matter of how you define things.

Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 06:07
About Kraftwerk check the dvd Minimum Maximum it's all you need to become friend with the band,
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 06:06
Thanks for the tips on Kraftwerk and ELO should I reconsider and check them out anew.  I don't even remember how I got into Kraftwerk in the first place.  I think an abbreviated version of Autobahn got a little radio play.  ELO did have a good reputation for their earlier albums amongst prog loving friends at the time.  I think I just had my hands full exploring the usual suspects.  I don't think we were calling that stuff prog but art rock or just really good music.

Most of my prog friends were actually my brother's (three years older) friends and he had built up a decent collection.  There were pretty much none of my classmates but one that was really into that kind of music.

Chicago is another that comes to mind.  More of a favorite of my brother's but I never had any of their albums.  They were added after I was already here though.


Edited by Slartibartfast - July 28 2011 at 06:13
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 06:00
it was all a dream we had one afternoon 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 05:53
^ Yep, I dunno when this started exactly but something faintly unwholesome happened when the money men took a controlling interest in popular music i.e. they demarcated the eclecticism that was a feature of progressive artists and started a phoney brand patriotism war. I've always thought that Hendrix, Crimson and the Nice exemplified an attitude that 'music' was an indivisible whole where no rules should apply to mixing the ingredients. I better stop now or I'm just gonna sound like I'm nostalgic for something that never even happened in the first place...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 05:38
I remember being almost ostracised for my music taste in school for enjoying Yes, Floyd, Sabbath, Heep etc, - the other kids had the Stones, Donny Osmond, David Cassidy, the Beatles and later Kiss emblazened on their school bags etc.
It was almost as if my preferences added a kind of mystique to me and my mates - lol.
It was so easy to categorise music back then - Underground, Pop, Jazz or Classical.
The pop lovers were a different breed to the Underground music lovers.
Later it became Rock, Metal, Punk, Disco, Jazz and Classical.
Now - Holy Moly - Progarchives alone has more categories than their were types of music back then.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 05:28
Yes, it is a conundrum as there is a danger that we might continue to pine for a period when (as David so adroitly points out) when many plain vanilla rock and pop bands were charting with singles that do represent a distillation of the questing and adventurous risk taking spirit that we adore so much in Prog. I baulk at such nostalgia as I can understand why such irritates the younger brethren on PA. (Gawd, I'm the new Walter Dig Tunes - Lemming Digs SquatDead)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 05:21
I don't know that prog was ever really pop - I won't argue though. I personally think that Genesis, Yes, Floyd, KC could never have been termed pop music - in the record stores back then they would be found under the Underground category whereas ELO were categorised as Pop. I'm one of those perhaps silly individuals who can find no similarities between the Beatles and Prog Embarrassed other than the fact that they are both music. I do put ELO into the same personal category at home as the Beatles and the Stones and in fact as the Osmonds, the Archies etc.
Just me though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 05:13
Good question.  Where does one draw the line?  You believe ELO was, or was considered, Pop--  and you're right, they were indeed a pop band.  But that's kind of the point.  For a time, Prog was pop; it was the cutting edge popular music (it certainly wasn't Billy Joel or Seals&Crofts).  How do we deal with that startling reality?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2011 at 05:01
Where does one draw the line though? I could argue that Grand Funk Railroad probably deserve to be represented here as they were the US's answer to Black Sabbath etc and their music (their older music) definately wasn't mainstream back then.
I have accepted that but am still very bitter about the fact that Stratovarius isn't represented on the Site and the arguments will always be - if they are represented then how come another is not.
Never in my wildest dreams would I place ELO amongst my own personal progressive collection. They were categorised as pop music back in the day and I personally agree with that.
The Beatles are here yet the Rolling Stones aren't?
I'm not saying that the Stones should be here but if the one is given exposure how come not the other when they were so closely related back in the day. One was the antithesis almost of the other.
As I said - where do we draw the line?
 
 
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