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Catcher10 
Forum Senior Member 
VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17847 |
 Posted: July 22 2011 at 17:25 |
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^ I have certainly noticed that on my copies of DSOtM. My 30th Anniversary vinyl issue is brilliant compared to my CD version....I see that.
And agree that 80's CD stuff is much better than 90's CD, but is this due much more so to the AAD format of the 80's CD's?
You would think artists/engineers would have figured this out by now and tried to go back to that 80's CD sound or AAD format or whatever to make all that aggressive treble go away.
??
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
Posted: July 22 2011 at 21:08 |
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 Perhaps it's not in the format but in the repeated listening. I'm sure you listened to the CD version first and got tired and then listened to the LP version and were amazingly refreshed.  I grew up with vinyl, BTW. Speaking of which, I do have some vinyl I have now cataloged that I would like to sell to a good home. Most of the discs are pristine. Oh, if you want to try more modern stuff on vinyl vs CD it is out there. I ordered Radiohead's new one on LP by accident and now have the CD also. Haven't tried the LP yet as I still don't have a functioning turn table set up. But back to the original question, vinyl didn't die, why should we expect the same thing to happen with CD. Edited by Slartibartfast - July 22 2011 at 21:09 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: July 23 2011 at 10:52 |
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The phenomenon is called "confirmation bias". You said yourself that on Saturday you already had a suspicion that listening to CDs was somehow more stressful than listening to vinyl. Then on Sunday you tried to test this hypothesis, but unfortunately throughout the test you knew what you were listening to at the time. You knew while you were listening to CDs that they might be more stressful, and you knew while you were listening to vinyl that they were supposed to be less stressful. Our brains have a hard-wired tendency to be biased towards confirming preconceptions. I'm not saying that this is necessarily what happened - for all we know what you experienced could be true. But then again we also know of various double-blind listening tests that don't confirm such an hypothesis, and it's exactly this confirmation bias that's eliminated by making a test double-blind. BTW: In some cases it's possible that the CD mix is radically different from the vinyl mix for a particular album - in that case there might be a little bit more listening fatigue if the CD mix is louder (we discussed the loudness wars in this forum in the past). That would not be an indication that digital is worse than analog though - it would merely show that this particular CD mix is more fatiguing. In that case you could probably actually tell apart CD and vinyl in a double blind test, and you would then have to create a CD mix that's more like the vinyl mix in terms of loudness in order to properly compare the different media.
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1882 |
Posted: July 23 2011 at 11:24 |
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^
 three cheers for intro to psychology 101
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator 
Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20248 |
Posted: July 23 2011 at 15:13 |
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We did a "blind" test a few years back, with a radio technician (I worked six months at the RTBF, and most of my music buddies are still from that stint some 20 years ago) recording direct on a DAT some of the same passages of classic prog track... the vinyl, the first generation cds (80's) and the Cd remasters (90's-00's) mixed in different orders
we wrote down what we thought we recognized...
Of the seven people participating, six were perfect in recognizing the vinyl version, the seventh only making one mistake
telling the original Cd from the remaster was much harder though... from what I rememlbe on the combined average we were roughly 65% right in guessing or telling them apart...
Now we were supposed to also tell which of the ones we preferred and in which order
Not surprisingly Vinyl won hands down (we'd all grown up with vinyls, so it sounded the natural/real thing).... but the original and remastered CDs results were relatively inconclusive.... But I'd probably think that given the ear-flattering remastering techniques lost to the original version... but remember that most of these ears are professionals or trained.... I'd say my ears were probably the second-most amateurs of the pack.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: July 23 2011 at 17:10 |
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^ This ties in with my previous post - you identified different mixes, not different media.
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17847 |
Posted: July 23 2011 at 17:38 |
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I don't expect the CD to die.....and I don't expect the vinyl to die either. It is very true, all vinyl stores I go to a large portion of shoppers are 20-30 somethings buying old and new material.
I never really stopped listening to vinyl, there was a period where I did not listen to much music at home due to the kids and just not having time, so it has always been refreshing to me to listen to my vinyl.
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17847 |
Posted: July 23 2011 at 17:45 |
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I totally understand and agree......my mind can play tricks on me for sure......but I have always trusted my ears and since my ears do not think....I'll go with them on this one
 .It seems to me the big issue with CDs is the lack of experienced mixing, like what we know existed with vinyl back in the 70's. We all can hear the bad mixing and loudness in current CD's.
For the record (pun intended) I do like both medias.....I love my car CD player, as the additional loudness does help drown out the road noise......
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: July 23 2011 at 19:19 |
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It's not bad mixing, it's different mixing (more accurately different EQ and compression - in most cases the mix remains unchanged).
Modern sound engineers do actually know as much as those of the 70s (maybe even more), what you are hearing is what is fashionable today and what producers want.
Ironically, some people are complaining about the dynamic range of modern CDs [ref: Dynamic Range (Range of Volume) in Prog] while others are complaining about the opposite. It's a lose-lose situation
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17847 |
Posted: July 23 2011 at 20:34 |
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Where's Alan Parsons when we need him??!!
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: July 24 2011 at 04:15 |
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The whole video is very fun to watch, but starting at about 9:30 he presents a little hearing experiment. The problem with trusting your ears is that in the end the mind does the hearing.
There are some CDs out there where you can really hear the problem (Death Magnetic, Californication) but by and large it's not that big a problem - fans of vinyl love to harp on it, and it's a topic which allows all sorts of people to chime in and side with the fans of high quality audio.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: July 24 2011 at 05:40 |
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As you indicated with the emoticon, it's only a lose-lose situation when you choose to see it that way. For me - and I'm sure for many others, too - it's a win-win situation. I can listen to an album with reduced dynamic range and enjoy it, and I can also listen to an audiophile production and enjoy it. Some albums I do not enjoy, and it's possible that for some of them the mix may be partially responsible for the lack of enjoyment, but I won't dismiss albums because of blanket prejudice against modern technology.
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17847 |
Posted: July 24 2011 at 07:06 |
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Yes but my displeasure comes from the CD version of certain vinyl I have....vinyl that was originally recorded in the 70's, not a new album recorded recently with modern technology. Recent releases I do not have the luxury to experience both CD and vinyl.
Which based on my "experiment" I would like to have both.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: July 24 2011 at 09:40 |
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That's why I say it is down to the mastering process (EQ and Compression) and not the mixing. Albums recorded in the 70s that were transfered to CD in the early 80s were not remixed, the master tapes were simply re-EQ's and re-Compressed for the new format. I suspect that in the very early transfers very little Compression was used (even less than they were using on vinyl) because CDs have a greater dynamic range so the Engineers thought it unnecessary. As the years progressed they employed more and more compression because it sounds louder on playback but there is a trade off involved where the altering the overall dynamics of the mix affects the perceived dynamics of individual elements within the mix. This can be alleviated by altering the compression/EQ of instruments individually - doing this was again, started in the 80s, with the most obvious being the drum track, (and here I don't mean the gated drum sound of the 80s, but the overall compressed nature of the entire drum sound from kick drum through to high-hat and the crisper sharper attack of the EQing used during that time). So modern remastering of 70s albums begins with the conditioning of each track on the multitrack, with varying levels of individual EQ and compression (but since these multitrack tapes are themselves partial mix-downs this cannot be done to the degree it is on modern recordings), and then final mastering of the final mix is made (to modern tastes and fashions) - this is why the 2003 remastering of DSotM is different to the 1997 version is different to the original 1984 transfer to CD - personnaly I find the 2003 (30th Anniversary remaster) to be one of the best remasters I've ever heard and certainly not tiring or wearing to listen to.
And no, I don't think it matters were Alan Parsons is because I don't think he was as good as he thinks he is - certainly nothing that he's done since DSofM comes anywhere near as good in production, final mix and mastering, which isn't a surprise because Chris Thomas was responsible for that on DSotM (even if he was working for Parsons).
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17847 |
Posted: July 24 2011 at 16:44 |
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I wonder with such hightened discussion and attention vinyl has been getting, if some of the "old" mastering/EQ/mixing/process will return to new music? Probably a dumb statement.....but worth thinking about. As I spin my copy of Porcupine Tree FOABP......Steven Wilson seems to be one of those that wants to pay attention or maybe appreciates what vinyl sounds like.....Again probably a dumb statement on my part as obviously I don/t know him. I don't have the 2003 version of DSotM on CD......once I play out my vinyl anniversary issue I probably will get that one....but until then I'll keep spinin' the vinyl...
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17847 |
Posted: July 25 2011 at 10:27 |
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Maybe this is off topic since not really about the end of the CD.....But yesterday I started thinking about my collection. A lot of prog rock, jazz and funk/R&B. I might ramble here but hear me out......As I am interested in Dean's mastering comments.
My copies of the following vinyl are original releases (not remasters, or 180 pressings, blah,blah) Foxtrot, Selling England/Pound, ItCotKC, Aqualung. Of these Foxtrot and SEBtP are the "worst", only way to describe is very muddy sound, I have to use my EQ to enhance certain areas and give them some life. The others are better but still have that muddy sound. Now when I play the same albums I have on CD, the sound is much, much better, I believe all are remasters, I am not 100% sure though as I have not checked the catalog numbers, but probably.
So my wife was downstairs reading some cookbooks while I was spinning stuff, and rather than bore her with KC, I put on Off the Wall (1979) by Michael Jackson, again original vinyl release I have. The sound, the details are well, compared to SEBtP......amazing, brilliant, no comparison. After that excellent album, I put on my all time fav album All n' All (1977) by Earth, Wind & Fire...same album I bought in 1977. Again there is no comparison in these 2 albums and some of my prog albums all within 7 yrs of each other. With MJ and EW&F there is a lot of percussion, synth and rhythmn guitars also horns. Some of these exist in the prog albums mentioned......so I wonder
Is it the style of music? The instruments used? The quantity of musicians......or does a particular genre just get better production people (this is probably bad to say) than other genres?
Again, I don't have the exact tech lingo but these 2 Pop/R&B albums just sound soooo much better than SEBtP and Foxtrot. And since I am picking on Genesis (the only time I ever will
), my vinyl copies of Duke and Abacab are much better than the other two....very similar to my digital copies.I hope I made some kind of sense in this question/comment...thanks!
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: July 25 2011 at 10:51 |
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^ early Genesis albums do suffer from (what sounds like) poor production even though they were recorded in very good studios with very good equipment (for the day) and with experienced technicians - Trespass and Nusery Cryme were recorded at Trident, Foxtrot and SEbtP at Island, we can't even *blame* the producer in this case since Foxtrot anfd SEbtP had different producers so I assume this is what the band wanted. Judging by Genesis Live I suspect they were trying to reproduce the density of sound they had on stage, and I think they got that just about right on Lamb - Trick of the Tail and Wind&Wuthering are noticably different, the density is replaced by a much more open and airy sound. I think it is significant that Gabriel's solo albums PG1 and more so PG2 are very dense recordings (Gabriel even excludes all cymbols and hi-hat from the drum track as not to distract from that density of sound and I think that simple act reduced the muddiness that would have resulted if they had been left in) - that said, both of those albums are better produced than early Genesis, but I think that is simply that Gabriel had more studio experience by then.
As Henry has noted in the parallel thread to this on Dynamic Range (in Prog), in most cases we *blame* the record companies, (and the technology, the engineers and the producers), but often it is the artist who dictates how an album should sound.
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17847 |
Posted: July 25 2011 at 11:30 |
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^ Yea I did not mention those other Genesis albums and agree 100% they got those right or better than the earlier ones. I recognize the studios of those earlier albums and yes they are very good for the times. I don't have Genesis Live on vinyl only CD, but I totally enjoy Seconds Out on vinyl.
I don't think I blame the record companies, since they are about making money, which would make sense (to me) they would push for the "best" sound possible that will sell the most records. And I guess its true at the end of the day, its the artist who pushes for a particular sound.......maybe in the early years Genesis was tone deaf
.Thanks for your comments Dean.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: July 25 2011 at 12:38 |
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There are many modern albums featuring brilliant production (Catcher10 already mentioned Steve Wilson) - you just have to open your mind to accepting the possibility (this is aimed at people who are prejudiced against modern (audio) technology).
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: July 25 2011 at 12:57 |
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New decade, end of the CD?
Topic Options
Catcher10 wrote:
. Both CD and vinyl, heavy to the latter. During my CD listening I found myself getting a headache like feeling......weird. I told my wife and she said, you probably got tired of listening. That's why she is the better half of this marriage!! I think in this instance she was right.....but only on the CD end.