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Joined: October 10 2010
Location: Lancaster, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 1321
Posted: July 08 2011 at 14:16
QUOTE=Henry Plainview]
undercover_man wrote:
E.g. have a look at the results of annual polls on DPRP.net, quite representative, because these polls have nearly 1000 participants.
I'm just going to stop you right here: you do not understand statistics. That is not representative.
But unfortunatelly, at the same time music of these bands is often lacking, at least in my ears, some essential qualities of great prog music :challenging, intriguing, artistic, adventurous, highly sophisticated, infused with generous portions of artistic genres - classical music and jazz.
"Stop liking things I don't like."
The cathiness and accessibility is probably the key attribute to be succesful in new, young prog circles.
The same thing was true for the new, young prog circles in the 1970s.
And that’s what I regret most : these bands are living on the fringe of average progfans’ interest.
Nobody cares.
[/QUOTE]
I have nothing else to say after this. Well maybe this regarding the original post:
Joined: June 01 2010
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 10185
Posted: July 08 2011 at 15:32
himtroy wrote:
I'm glad somebody finally acknowledged how commercial metal is. People say that it isn't because of it's "heavy" nature, but really it's poppy still. It usually has an incredibly formula oriented structure, vocals throughout except during the "guitar solo." It is easily my least respected prog for the fact that it's rarely progressive.
Obviously you haven't heard Ehnahre. 12-tone death doom metal.
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
Posted: July 08 2011 at 15:33
Polo wrote:
himtroy wrote:
I'm glad somebody finally acknowledged how commercial metal is. People say that it isn't because of it's "heavy" nature, but really it's poppy still. It usually has an incredibly formula oriented structure, vocals throughout except during the "guitar solo." It is easily my least respected prog for the fact that it's rarely progressive.
Obviously you haven't heard Ehnahre. 12-tone death doom metal.
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
Posted: July 08 2011 at 16:03
darkshade wrote:
Triceratopsoil wrote:
Dream Theater is extremely commecial.
Only a few of their songs are, in which case they were trying to get a hit. I would say they're more "accessible"
I can agree that the bands you listed might better be described as accessible, but they're still not great examples for defending mainstream metal as not being commercial.
Polo wrote:
himtroy wrote:
I'm glad somebody finally acknowledged how commercial metal is. People say that it isn't because of it's "heavy" nature, but really it's poppy still. It usually has an incredibly formula oriented structure, vocals throughout except during the "guitar solo." It is easily my least respected prog for the fact that it's rarely progressive.
Obviously you haven't heard Ehnahre. 12-tone death doom metal.
I honestly cannot hear any difference from normal death metal until it randomly decays into pseudo-free improv after 3 minutes. And growls are terrible etc.
Joined: November 19 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 10964
Posted: July 08 2011 at 16:07
Henry Plainview wrote:
darkshade wrote:
Triceratopsoil wrote:
Dream Theater is extremely commecial.
Only a few of their songs are, in which case they were trying to get a hit. I would say they're more "accessible"
I can agree that the bands you listed might better be described as accessible, but they're still not great examples for defending mainstream metal as not being commercial.
Trust me, I am not defending mainstream metal as not being commercial
Joined: April 26 2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 336
Posted: July 08 2011 at 16:16
I haven't found any prog I own "accessible"; In terms of music in general and in terms of prog. Their are aspects of their music that can be accessible but as whole not really accessible. There is nothing wrong with not liking music that is really experimental. I don't really get the Zheul and Avant but its okay that it exists. I prefer emphasis on the melodies in my music.
The genre of Metal that is being bashed above is mainly power and heavy metal (anything with core in the genre tag does not count as metal). I agree that it is too formulaic but to say metal is commercial is just ridiculous. Metal is too big of music genre to be coiled down to one word. If you want some metal that is far from commercial try black, death or thrash metal. Most anything in that genre is far from commercial.
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
Posted: July 08 2011 at 16:24
I shouldn't have typed mainstream. What I'm saying is that those are some of the most successful/accessible/commercial bands in metal, and even if they're still "progressive", they're not a good example that metal is not commercial.
Garden of Dreams wrote:
I haven't found any prog I own "accessible"; In terms of music in general and in terms of prog. Their are aspects of their music that can be accessible but as whole not really accessible. There is nothing wrong with not liking music that is really experimental. I don't really get the Zheul and Avant but its okay that it exists. I prefer emphasis on the melodies in my music.
The genre of Metal that is being bashed above is mainly power and heavy metal (anything with core in the genre tag does not count as metal). I agree that it is too formulaic but to say metal is commercial is just ridiculous. Metal is too big of music genre to be coiled down to one word. If you want some metal that is far from commercial try black, death or thrash metal. Most anything in that genre is far from commercial.
I distinctly remember reading this post before. I am losing my mind.
Joined: April 26 2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 336
Posted: July 08 2011 at 16:41
Henry Plainview wrote:
I shouldn't have typed mainstream. What I'm saying is that those are some of the most successful/accessible/commercial bands in metal, and even if they're still "progressive", they're not a good example that metal is not commercial.
Garden of Dreams wrote:
I haven't found any prog I own "accessible"; In terms of music in general and in terms of prog. Their are aspects of their music that can be accessible but as whole not really accessible. There is nothing wrong with not liking music that is really experimental. I don't really get the Zheul and Avant but its okay that it exists. I prefer emphasis on the melodies in my music.
The genre of Metal that is being bashed above is mainly power and heavy metal (anything with core in the genre tag does not count as metal). I agree that it is too formulaic but to say metal is commercial is just ridiculous. Metal is too big of music genre to be coiled down to one word. If you want some metal that is far from commercial try black, death or thrash metal. Most anything in that genre is far from commercial.
I distinctly remember reading this post before. I am losing my mind.
My bad if the post is sounding repetitive, I haven't read the whole thread.
I wasn't specifically referring to your comments and you are correct but the most successful bands in metal don't accurately represent metal. As is the case in most genres, the more experimental music is rarely commercial.
Joined: November 19 2005
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 10964
Posted: July 08 2011 at 16:43
Henry Plainview wrote:
I shouldn't have typed mainstream. What I'm saying is that those are some of the most successful/accessible/commercial bands in metal, and even if they're still "progressive", they're not a good example that metal is not commercial.
Gotcha.
Well, I guess they are more popular/successful whatever. In terms of non-prog metal, I agree that most of it is commercial, as it is more popular than it has been since the 80s; when it was also pretty commercial. It's a sound that is used by a lot of modern prog bands, probably to get attention from listeners.
Joined: October 12 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2779
Posted: July 08 2011 at 23:00
Polo wrote:
himtroy wrote:
I'm glad somebody finally acknowledged how commercial metal is. People say that it isn't because of it's "heavy" nature, but really it's poppy still. It usually has an incredibly formula oriented structure, vocals throughout except during the "guitar solo." It is easily my least respected prog for the fact that it's rarely progressive.
Obviously you haven't heard Ehnahre. 12-tone death doom metal.
This idea that "f**ked up-sounding = progressive" has to be the single most pseudo-intellectual line of thinking among "prog" listeners.
Also, the "doom death metal" element just limits the "12-tone" element of the music, because if it is going to be called "metal" of any kind, it always has to come back to that "riff-based", repetitive structure... otherwise it would just be "12-tone music played with distorted guitar" etc.
Which makes it all the more ironic that such a stylistically limited genre as metal has been broken up into more micro-genres than anything else.
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Have new prog fans too commercial tastes?
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Triceratopsoil wrote:
