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oliverstoned View Drop Down

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Posted: June 17 2011 at 13:07

The T wrote:

Thanks man. And LOL

. You really have to stick around There's nothing more entertaining that the discussions between you and Dean.

No really the Marantz CD out itself already provides good audio but at lower levels.

And Dean actually DID recommend me a dedicated amp, just one made for higher-impedance cans...

Here's what he said in the other thread:

"However, you do not need a dedicated headphone amp - any amplifier with a headphone jack will suffice, you can even use your Denon DM38 as a headphone amp in the interim (just plug the CD player into the AUX in phono sockets at the rear)."

I've better things to do, really.

Bye!

Edited by oliverstoned - June 17 2011 at 13:09

The T

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Posted: June 17 2011 at 13:12

^That was in reference to my old HD380's. For the HD650's he agreed on an amp.

oliverstoned View Drop Down

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Posted: June 17 2011 at 13:18

"Originally posted by oliverstoned

I've never adviced any headphone amp to drive the HD650, but to drive the HD25. Pluging the HD650 on the output of the Denon will give a poor result but you have not the choice anymore, since you ordered the 650's.

Dean's reply:

Poor is subjective and unless you've heard the Denon DM38 driving HD650 I can't see how you can make that statement.

The O/P of the Denon DM38 is quoted at 30W into 6 ohms, this equates to a driving voltage of 15.5VRMS. Typically a headphone O/P will have a 270R series resistor on each channel to reduce the voltage levels, which in this case would halve the drive voltage to 7.75VRMS, so when driving the HD650 the max O/P power will be 0.2W, or roughly half what the HD650 are rated at. In theory this should still produce sound presure levels around 100dB, which is more than enough.

Edited by oliverstoned - June 17 2011 at 13:18

The T

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Posted: June 17 2011 at 14:20

Bi-winning

Dean

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Posted: June 17 2011 at 16:38

Originally posted by some damn fool somewhere

some damn fool somewhere wrote:

Of course I don't have the circuit schematic of the DM38 so I don't know how the headphone socket is wired, but in principle it should be able to drive the HD650 to "typical" listening levels without any detremental affect to the "sound", but only listening will tell for sure.

I do hate it when people selective-quote me.

Edited by Dean - June 17 2011 at 17:46

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Posted: June 17 2011 at 17:25

The T wrote:

Dean wrote:

Whether you use co-ax or optical to carry the digital data stream it makes no difference to the sound at all (ever) - in theory the optical TOSLINK connectors are more reliable than the RCA connectors used on the co-ax cable, but in practice I've not know that to cause any problems.

Whether you use the DAC on your CD player and make an analogue connection to the receiver or make a digital connection to the DAC on your Receiver is purely a matter of personal preference to what they sound like. Now-a-days all Sigma-Delta DAC chips sound the same because they essentially are the same, it's the quality of audio filtering/amplifying electronics after the digital conversion that you are listening to, and that is entirely subjective.

As always, Dean is the only one actually answering my question. Thanks. Smile

And I'm using digital out of the CD5004 because the analog I will be using to connect to the headphone amp. I could connect via analog and the connect the headphone amp to the pre-out in the actual receiver but I've been reading that pre-outs mess with the signal more because it has more interaction with the circuitry vs line-outs (like the one in the cd player) which come out as more "pure".

I don't know enough about Marantz AV receivers to be of much help here - on a normal amp I'd avoid the pre-outs as they are (as the name implies) the output of the pre-amplifier so have all the inherent filtering and tone controls in the signal-path as well as the pre-amplifier itself - this means that the signal is larger than the line-outs by a factor of 10 (at least) - this would overload the V-Can I/P (or at least render the volume control practically unusable). On a normal amp I would go for the tape-outs instead as these are at typical line-out voltage levels, but I assume the AV receiver won't have a tape-in/tape-out pairing, ~~so your solutions appears to be the only viable one.~~

/edit: ...actually the V-Cans have a line-out, so you could go from CD-Player line-out to V-Can line in, then V-Can line-out to Marantz AV Receiver CD line-in. If you have an extra pair of RCA interconnects lying around that's a simple and easy solution that does not require buying a TOSLINK or Digital co-ax cable.

Edited by Dean - June 17 2011 at 18:58

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Posted: June 17 2011 at 17:44

oliverstoned wrote:

The T wrote:

Thanks man. And LOL

. You really have to stick around There's nothing more entertaining that the discussions between you and Dean.

No really the Marantz CD out itself already provides good audio but at lower levels.

And Dean actually DID recommend me a dedicated amp, just one made for higher-impedance cans...

... I had to check that "interim" translates into French, and it does - "intérim" "intérimaires" "période temporaire"

I also said:

Quick answer: You do need a dedicated headphone amplifier to drive the HD650's from the Marantz CD5004 - the output of the Marantz is 18mW into 32 ohms - the HD650 are 300 ohms - basically you do not have enough voltage to drive the headphones and the maximum power you can feed into them from the Marantz is 1.9mW. [this means that the HD650's will be three times quieter than your HD380's when plugged into the Marantz]

and Teo has said:

The marantz CD5004 out connected directly to the HD650 gives positive results but the volume is quite low (it has a dedicated mini-knob next to the output).

No really the Marantz CD out itself already provides good audio but at lower levels.

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Dean

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Posted: June 17 2011 at 18:24

The T wrote:

Dean wrote:

The T wrote:

I will be using my analog outs in the cd5004 to connect the headphone amp (which by the way has been doing a tremendous job).

I assume you bought the V-Can to drive your HD380s - have you tried a comparison between Marantz, Denon & V-Can?

Yes, I bought it even as we were talking in that other thread (actually, my girlfriend bought it for me so I didn't have much time to think about your suggestion Tongue

). I've compared: the denon out has a lot of noise and through the HD650 it sounds horrible. It's like the HD380 was masking the horrible sound or something. The HD650 reveals the debacle. The marantz CD5004 out connected directly to the HD650 gives positive results but the volume is quite low (it has a dedicated mini-knob next to the output). Through the v-can, the results are amazing. These headphones are the best I've ever had (well, obviously). So much more detail, balance, clarity. Amazing. Now I guess with an even better head-amp the results would be even more outstanding but I assume the law of diminishing returs would start to apply... For now until I get somehow wealthier, I'll stay with this setup. Tongue

I suspect there is a terrible impedance miss-match on the Denon h/phone output that is causing this - the HD380s are probably better matched to the output and give a more representative sound in this case rather than masking the horrible sound - (it is actually very difficult to mask noise, it is better not to create it in the first place) - if you cannot hear this noise in the loud speakers then it isn't in the system but a product of the h/phone output not being able to drive the hi-z HD650 headphones adequately - as I said, without the circuit schematics I don't know how the h/phone socket is wired.

Can't say whether a better headphone amp would give any returns - if the V-Can gives "normal" listening levels with the volume control set somewhere between 1/4 and mid-way then any "improvement" you'll get from a more expensive amp, or one specifically designed for hi-z h/phones is purely subjective and in Oliver's domain, not mine. However if you need to wrack the volume up to 3/4 or max then certainly a "better" amp will give returns.

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The T

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Posted: June 17 2011 at 19:16

Thanks Dean, your answers are always fascinating. One final question: since price is not an issue (at work I can get a toslink cable for 2 dollars, a d a good one at that), what is the better connection? Going with the line out in the headphone amp via analog or still using toslink for the cd>amp and analog only for cd>headphoneamp ?

Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down

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Posted: June 17 2011 at 23:24

oliverstoned wrote:

The T wrote:

Thanks man. And LOL

. You really have to stick around There's nothing more entertaining that the discussions between you and Dean.

No really the Marantz CD out itself already provides good audio but at lower levels.

And Dean actually DID recommend me a dedicated amp, just one made for higher-impedance cans...

You obviously don't need a dedicated headphone amp when you have a device that has a headphone jack which is suitable for higher-impedance headphones.

Hopefully you'll really be absent from these threads for a while - it reduces the likelihood that naive users will be fooled into spending their hard earned money on useless gadgets.

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Posted: June 18 2011 at 02:16

The T wrote:

Thanks Dean, your answers are always fascinating. One final question: since price is not an issue (at work I can get a toslink cable for 2 dollars, a d a good one at that), what is the better connection? Going with the line out in the headphone amp via analog or still using toslink for the cd>amp and analog only for cd>headphoneamp ?

My initial answer still stands: "Whether you use the DAC on your CD player and make an analogue connection to the receiver or make a digital connection to the DAC on your Receiver is purely a matter of personal preference to what they sound like."

Since your CD player and your AV receiver are both Marantz then it's a fair bet that the DACs are either identical or very similar so that is unlikely to produce any real difference, which one you uses is purely down to which route you prefer when you listen (if you can honestly tell a difference).

If you do it right then it should not matter which you use, however logically a single toslink cable is going to be neater and more reliable than two pairs of RCA interconnects, and it's cheaper too - a $2 toslink is always going to be cheaper than $20 RCA cables.

Did you know that the light shining down a fiber-optic cables is subject to Rayleigh Scattering? Small planetoid isn't it.

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Posted: June 18 2011 at 03:52

^ That's also why I refrained from posting some real advice: It doesn't matter too much - the differences are marginal (read: non-detectable) either way. I guess it comes down to which cable is cheaper and/or more practical to use.

Personally, I can say once again in this thread that I'd even recommend (modern) bluetooth cable free headphones. Yes, lossy compression is used, no, it doesn't negatively affect the listening experience. Smile

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Posted: June 18 2011 at 04:19

Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ That's also why I refrained from posting some real advice: It doesn't matter too much - the differences are marginal (read: non-detectable) either way. I guess it comes down to which cable is cheaper and/or more practical to use.

I've never tried bluetooth h/phones - I've bluetooth speaker (Linx B-Tube) for use with my 'phone (Nokia 5800 XPress Music) but experienced too many drop-outs so a 3.5mm jack-lead is more reliable. Having bought a "swiss-army knife" of a 'phone, I find that I prefer to use it just as 'phone and use the Archos as an mp3/mp4 player (and to surf the interwebs and stream music around the house) and a cheap "ebay" GPS device to get me from A to B.

I bought a Chumby One the other day (more for a laugh for than any other reason) - it's one of those "It's useless and I don't need it, but I want one" type gadgets (same description could apply to an iPad really)... basically a wifi connected desk clock running linux, it streams web content as well as FM and web radio, and streamed Ipod and Squeezebox from my PC. (Currently listening to Morow Prog Rock Radio through it [np: Steve Hackett ~ Emerald And Ash])

Edited by Dean - June 18 2011 at 04:24

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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down

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Posted: June 18 2011 at 07:45

I guess it's hit or miss - some people experience frequent drop-outs with bluetooth devices, for others it works just fine. As far as streaming around the house is concerned, I'd rather use WLAN, but afaik there aren't any definitive standards yet (except for proprietary stuff like Apple's AirPlay). Well, since my "house" is only one room, I could use bluetooth for that anyway. Wink

As for Archos vs iPhone/Android for listening: I really like the "one device less to carry around" argument, plus the "access to my entire collection via Audiogalaxy" that I made in the other thread. There's also the Napster app - it works quite well. And sooner or later we'll have Apple's iCloud/iMatch and competing, similar services from Amazon and whatnot.

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Posted: June 18 2011 at 08:34

^ the main reason is battery drain - I'm too absent minded to keep the 'phone charged so the less I use it for non-phone apps the longer I can go without recharging. If the archos battery goes flat it's no big deal.

I'm about as unexcited about the rebranding of the internet as the cloud (or the iNternet as the iCloud) as it is possible to get - as I've said before, this is the beginning of the end of owning the music you buy and that's a very bad thing.

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Posted: June 22 2011 at 07:12

With Audiogalaxy, Subsoniq etc. the music stays on your own computer ... you use your personal, private cloud so to speak. Smile

Dean