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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Points: 9669
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 08:59 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
Hey, I haven't seen you post in a while. I'm glad you could spare the time to come back and make what is possibly the most elitist post in this thread so far in case we'd forgotten about your moral superiority while you were gone.
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![Shocked Shocked](smileys/smiley3.gif) Thank you, Mr Pot. Henry, et al (< note elitist use of dead language), I know I risk sounding elitist, but I still believe what I wrote to be broadly true. I am generalizing, of course (see my use of "most"), and the issue of personal taste is complex, but most people (again, in my experience) don't care much about ANY form of music. Most people have middle of the road (thus the expression) tastes in most things. Prog is not middle of the road music -- it does not appeal to, or target, the average. Many others here have made insightful responses to the OP's question, which shed further light on the issue. Again, the issue IS more complicated than my admittedly off-the-cuff, uni-dimensional post might imply, but I still think that I've expressed a basic truth. If it is "elitist" to generalize about masses of people at all, then I am guilty, I suppose. BTW, thank you for suggesting that I am morally superior, but there is really little about morality in my post, or the issue. I was speaking of taste, and of many people's seeming propensity to not think much -- least of all about music. I don't think that's in the realm of "morality." But here's my basic point, in a nutshell: prog is not average music, so it does not appeal to the (average) majority. Ditto jazz, classical, folk, death metal, microbrewed stout -- ANY "niche" thing that comes down to taste. I'll leave SUVs and shrimp out of it, next time (though again, my point there was about "average" behavior.
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AtomicCrimsonRush
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Joined: July 02 2008
Location: Australia
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Points: 14258
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 09:03 |
The reasons the masses hate prog are the very reasons that I love it.
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Peter
Special Collaborator
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 09:07 |
As I said, I think that for the vast majority of people, music is for dancing, or serves as an unobtrusive vacuum-filling background for talk, work, etc. As such, they don't think about it much, and complexity (as in prog) will only work against what they "use" music for. Dedicated music listeners, like dedicated readers, etc, are a minority.
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Points: 9669
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 09:08 |
AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:
The reasons the masses hate prog are the very reasons that I love it. |
Broadly true for me, too.
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Warthur
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 06 2008
Location: London, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 617
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 09:26 |
Peter wrote:
As I said, I think that for the vast majority of people, music is for dancing, or serves as an unobtrusive vacuum-filling background for talk, work, etc. As such, they don't think about it much, and complexity (as in prog) will only work against what they "use" music for. Dedicated music listeners, like dedicated readers, etc, are a minority. |
True, and I think you will also find that just because someone has middle-of-the-road tastes in music, doesn't mean they have mainstream tastes in absolutely everything under the sun - most people will have at least something they're enthused by, it's not to be held against them if that thing happens to be music.
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Peter
Special Collaborator
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Points: 9669
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 09:53 |
Warthur wrote:
Peter wrote:
As I said, I think that for the vast majority of people, music is for dancing, or serves as an unobtrusive vacuum-filling background for talk, work, etc. As such, they don't think about it much, and complexity (as in prog) will only work against what they "use" music for. Dedicated music listeners, like dedicated readers, etc, are a minority. | True, and I think you will also find that just because someone has middle-of-the-road tastes in music, doesn't mean they have mainstream tastes in absolutely everything under the sun - most people will have at least something they're enthused by, it's not to be held against them if that thing happens to be music. |
Very true. ![Thumbs Up Thumbs Up](smileys/smiley20.gif) One of my regular tasks as a teacher (of adults who are returning to school), is to find out what my new students' hobbies and interests are. I always present the question with the assumption that everyone is into something, and this has invariably been true (although some folks have few, or only minor interests -- but the reasons for that relative lack of "connection" to things will be as varied as individuals and their life histories are). I think that unobtrusive vs obtrusive, "appeals to hips" vs "appeals to head" is also one of the keys to this issue. People use music for different things, and I don't think most use it as primary, stand-alone entertainment to deeply engage with on a cerebral and emotional level. That's okay, as you suggest. ![Smile Smile](https://www.progarchives.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif)
Edited by Peter - June 22 2011 at 09:54
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
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Points: 9669
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 10:22 |
rogerthat wrote:
^^^ All that doesn't answer why many people who love jazz or classical music disregard prog. Why do many people who like great rock music, by any means 'real' music and not decadent mass entertainment, like Dylan, Kinks, Beatles dislike prog? Surely, they all REALLY listen to music too? The answer lies to a large extent in not only how the media and critics project prog (usually in a bad light) but also how a lot of prog listeners themselves describe it and project it. You are not going to find a lot of people who are interested in actively listening to 'weird', 'intellectual', 'complex' music because most people who love music listen to it for pleasure and for the emotions.
Why did some 20th century classical compositions have to be performed in its early days for small private audiences instead of huge halls as in the Romantic era? The answer to both questions is much the same. Musicians can try all they want to make a lot of people like avant garde and it's never going to happen, it's a battle that they will never win. I am not saying there is anything wrong with wanting to make challenging music or challenging conventional notions of melody but people who either like music for the sake of such complexity or innovation or who derive more pleasure from dissonance and an aesthetic ugliness rather than conventional melody have thus far been the minority. There are no signs yet that this would change. If, on the other hand, you try to introduce what prog there is that is emotionally resonant to people, you MIGHT succeed if the concerned people are somewhat open minded about music. If you try to scare them off with something like Magma, don't be surprised that they hate prog. |
Sorry I did not respond earlier. I think we generally agree. I certainly get your point: there are avid music listeners out there, but most are not as into prog as we are. I'd posit that it's because even within the minority who are avid music listeners, there is variety and individuality, and niches have evolved which reflect that diversity of taste and personality. (There's also variety in the tastes and personalities of the artists who produce the different forms of art, of course.) Take "avid readers," for example: some will favour Victorian novels, others fantasy, others romance, others a broader spectrum: D - all of the above. Another example: I like a lot of prog and classic rock, and so do many of my friends. But I also really like folk, and most of my prog/rock loving friends don't share my deep enthusiasm for folk. Of those friends who DO really like folk, most don't engage with prog. (And never mind "what is prog?" I tend to mean classic -- or classic sounding -- prog; often dubbed "symphonic" here.) As for how the music industry and media "present" prog (or not), I think that part of the reason is that it has been found that prog does not immediately engage many people -- so it's not big business. Thus, most folks lack any ready opportunity to even be exposed to prog. If exposed, most people will tune it out/turn it off, and certainly not buy it. Thus, if you want to sell magazines, radio advertising space, CDs, then a complex niche music is not your easy road to quick riches. ![Smile Smile](smileys/smiley1.gif)
Edited by Peter - June 22 2011 at 10:29
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 10:40 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
Huh, while I enjoy avant-garde music, I always enjoy it because of the emotional resonance it has for me. I can't really imagine what enjoyment I would get out of music that I perceived as experimentation for the sake of it other than maybe being surprised. I guess that just shows how differently people perceive music.
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I had in fact addressed that too in the post a little above, that some people may find that kind of music more emotionally resonant. But I don't understand why wouldn't one want to listen to experimentation for the sake of it if it's very interesting from a left brained perspective? Is fusion highly emotional as a rule? I don't think so, but a lot of fusion is very interesting. I think sometimes people confuse the enjoyment they derive from intrigue (which is a bit like solving a crossword puzzle) with emotions. And in any case, if that does not apply to you, I had already covered that. But a lot of 'serious' listeners do listen to music from the so called left brained view, it's pretty normal.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 10:55 |
Warthur wrote:
And Floyd's most commercially successful albums - Dark Side of the Moon to The Wall - all kept one eye on more commercial forms of classic rock too (to the extent where there are those here who'd argue that they aren't very progressive). |
Other than the Brick single, I don't hear COMMERCIAL music on the Wall and none of it certainly on Dark Side. Quite accessible, yes, but that's non-negotiable. The more inaccessible side of prog is not going to win over the mainstream but from time to time in the 70s, its more accessible side was commercially successful. The Yes album went platinum. Aqualung has apparently sold 15 million units by now. If we look only at charting success, then, shock and horror, Free Hand touched 48 on the US Billboards. We know the story....those who got commercial success wanted more of it and crossed over and those who preferred to remain trve got swept away by the 80s. Of course, as I already said, it is difficult to balance appeal and sophistication and when I am feeling less charitable, I like to suggest that some of those who tilt totally towards sophistication do so because they don't have the talent to write something appealing that isn't also crap. ![LOL LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif) It is harsh but I think there are those to whom this applies.
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twosteves
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 01 2007
Location: NYC/Rhinebeck
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Points: 4095
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 14:31 |
Alitare wrote:
brainstormer wrote:
One thing that should always be remembered: Prog is the closest musical to classical, and classical types of music have stood the test of time. So, anyone who might be critical and try to put prog in the same place as some other subgenre has to deal with the fact that prog rock in many ways is like classical music. It's not such a subjective choice for one's music, IMHO. I wouldn't say that to anyone outside this newsgroup, unless they liked prog. ![LOL LOL](smileys/smiley36.gif)
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You know what else has stood the test of time? Folk music. I hate this "prog is smarter and deeper and better than any other genre" horsesh*t. What f**king narcissistic asswipes have to validate their existence by claiming the music they like most makes them better human beings than anyone else? You think Stephen Hawking listens to Yes and Rush? Jesus Christ, what a steaming pile of subjectivity.
On another note, I really hate System of a Down. |
Mr Hawking does not listen to Rush--way too simplistic! He is however, a big classic Yes and Genesis fan.
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 15:05 |
If you've read Stephen Hawking's book "Black Holes and Baby Universes" you'll see that he lists his desert island discs. All classical stuff. His appearance on Pink Floyd's Keep Talking was completely unbeknownst to him and if I remember correctly the track of Hawking's voice was lifted from a British telecomunications company television advert. So the fact that Hawking is a big Floyd fan is a complete myth.Or any rock music for that matter.
Edited by Vibrationbaby - June 22 2011 at 15:07
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Peter
Special Collaborator
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 16:08 |
![Geek Geek](smileys/smiley23.gif) I think this question, and others of its ilk, can essentially be boiled down to "why aren't they like us?" Thus, the essential answer is "because they are not us."
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 16:50 |
Peter wrote:
Henry Plainview wrote:
Hey, I haven't seen you post in a while. I'm glad you could spare the time to come back and make what is possibly the most elitist post in this thread so far in case we'd forgotten about your moral superiority while you were gone.
<div style="border-width: 0px; margin: 1px; line-height: 1.2; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;"> |
![Shocked Shocked](smileys/smiley3.gif) Thank you, Mr Pot. Henry, et al (< note elitist use of dead language), I know I risk sounding elitist, but I still believe what I wrote to be broadly true. I am generalizing, of course (see my use of "most"), and the issue of personal taste is complex, but most people (again, in my experience) don't care much about ANY form of music. Most people have middle of the road (thus the expression) tastes in most things. Prog is not middle of the road music -- it does not appeal to, or target, the average. Many others here have made insightful responses to the OP's question, which shed further light on the issue. Again, the issue IS more complicated than my admittedly off-the-cuff, uni-dimensional post might imply, but I still think that I've expressed a basic truth. If it is "elitist" to generalize about masses of people at all, then I am guilty, I suppose. BTW, thank you for suggesting that I am morally superior, but there is really little about morality in my post, or the issue. I was speaking of taste, and of many people's seeming propensity to not think much -- least of all about music. I don't think that's in the realm of "morality." But here's my basic point, in a nutshell: prog is not average music, so it does not appeal to the (average) majority. Ditto jazz, classical, folk, death metal, microbrewed stout -- ANY "niche" thing that comes down to taste. I'll leave SUVs and shrimp out of it, next time (though again, my point there was about "average" behavior. |
Nice posts Peter and welcome back. If your post is elitist then long live elitism.
HP's a decent chap but quite contrary and thus ranks second bottom in popularity on the site, just above me.
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The Neck Romancer
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Location: Brazil
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Points: 10185
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 21:22 |
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 21:37 |
Polo wrote:
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The spirit of Moshkito lives on. . . .
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The Neck Romancer
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Joined: June 01 2010
Location: Brazil
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 21:41 |
Note that Tony R has more than a million posts.
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ExittheLemming
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Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
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Points: 11420
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 08:11 |
999,000 of which filled the diapers of the recipients with a pungent dread (the man is a keyboard laxative)
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MagnumOpus
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Points: 14
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Posted: July 04 2011 at 03:27 |
I tend to think that people in general are not open minded enough in general, and that also regards to musical taste as well.
In my experience, open minded folks, spiritual Hippie-types, have more fantasy and a wider view og the world than the general traditional conservative population.
Much more fantasy & open to possibilities, and that is reflected in the music, from artists who makes it, and the audience that likes it.
Simple people like more simple things.
Complex people like more complexity and fantasy stuff.
Just like any polar opposites in life really..
Progressive/Psychedelic/space-rock are music for the dreamer.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: July 04 2011 at 04:17 |
MagnumOpus wrote:
In my experience, open minded folks, spiritual Hippie-types, have more fantasy and a wider view og the world than the general traditional conservative population. Much more fantasy & open to possibilities, and that is reflected in the music, from artists who makes it, and the audience that likes it.
Simple people like more simple things. Complex people like more complexity and fantasy stuff. . |
There is no correlation between complexity in the sense of ability to grasp complex things and an open minded philosophical outlook. Some of the most academically brilliant people I have met or people who manage enormous resources and responsibility have simple taste in music. Also, ability to appreciate what is good in complex music is nothing without the open mindedness to recognize greatness in simple ideas, for instance, the Beatles song Something.
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Henry Plainview
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Joined: May 26 2008
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Posted: July 04 2011 at 05:40 |
MagnumOpus wrote:
Simple people like more simple things.
Complex people like more complexity and fantasy stuff.
Just like any polar opposites in life really..
Progressive/Psychedelic/space-rock are music for the dreamer. |
I hope you are aware that fantasy literature is usually regarded as middlebrow at best. If you want to demonstrate your intellectual superiority, fantasy books and music made by stoned hippies are not the best choices.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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