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The T 
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Joined: October 16 2006
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 Topic: Digital coaxial vs optical
Posted: June 17 2011 at 01:31 |
Again, one of my audio questions. I have my cd player hooked via rca to my little denon but now that I have a receiver with optical inputs I can use the corresponding outputs in my cd5004. Which digital connection is better? I will be using my analog outs in the cd5004 to connect the headphone amp (which by the way has been doing a tremendous job). Please answer. Dean.  .
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stonebeard
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Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
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Points: 28057
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 01:48 |
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Analog, obviously. I removed the passenger seat from my car and installed a Denon DP-A100 player with a Yamaha AS2000 stereo. I'm running Monster wire connections and have a surge protector rigged through 4 cigarette lighters in my car. Needless to say, I had to upgrade the car's battery, but that was only $350 more. I had to tear apart the whole passenger quarter of the car to add the proper acoustic treatment to keep the whole thing from vibrating, which Auralex did for only $3,000. Naturally my Saturn's sound system is sh*t, so I have a pair of Sony R10s that I wear at all times while driving.
Really, anything less and you might as well pack it in.
Edited by stonebeard - June 17 2011 at 01:49
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 03:13 |
All this talk about cd players ... pure nostalgia from my point of view. 
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oliverstoned
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 03:39 |
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So you bought your dedicated home amp? Did you compared it against the output of your integrated home amp?
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20239
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 03:47 |
 The T wrote:
Again, one of my audio questions. I have my cd player hooked via rca to my little denon but now that I have a receiver with optical inputs I can use the corresponding outputs in my cd5004. Which digital connection is better? I will be using my analog outs in the cd5004 to connect the headphone amp (which by the way has been doing a tremendous job). Please answer. Dean. . |
this has a déjà-vu (or déjà-lu) feel....
I'm not sure I follow you, here  ...
digital co-ax and optical cable are for transporting digital... unless your amp will be doing the D to A conversion (instead of of your Cd deck), they're no use to you... or am i missing something?? 
the only digital coax and optical (i have both) I use is between my Cd deck and my hi-fi CD graver/burner, for best engraving result.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Dean
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Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 04:37 |
Whether you use co-ax or optical to carry the digital data stream it makes no difference to the sound at all (ever) - in theory the optical TOSLINK connectors are more reliable than the RCA connectors used on the co-ax cable, but in practice I've not know that to cause any problems.
Whether you use the DAC on your CD player and make an analogue connection to the receiver or make a digital connection to the DAC on your Receiver is purely a matter of personal preference to what they sound like. Now-a-days all Sigma-Delta DAC chips sound the same because they essentially are the same, it's the quality of audio filtering/amplifying electronics after the digital conversion that you are listening to, and that is entirely subjective.
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What?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 04:50 |
The T wrote:
I will be using my analog outs in the cd5004 to connect the headphone amp (which by the way has been doing a tremendous job). |
I assume you bought the V-Can to drive your HD380s - have you tried a comparison between Marantz, Denon & V-Can?
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What?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 05:03 |
stonebeard wrote:
Analog, obviously. I removed the passenger seat from my car and installed a Denon DP-A100 player with a Yamaha AS2000 stereo. I'm running Monster wire connections and have a surge protector rigged through 4 cigarette lighters in my car. Needless to say, I had to upgrade the car's battery, but that was only $350 more. I had to tear apart the whole passenger quarter of the car to add the proper acoustic treatment to keep the whole thing from vibrating, which Auralex did for only $3,000. Naturally my Saturn's sound system is sh*t, so I have a pair of Sony R10s that I wear at all times while driving.
Really, anything less and you might as well pack it in.
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Why use 4 cigarette lighters? It's just as easy & a lot neater to run 12 gauge wire (+ve and earth) directly from the battery (following the existing wiring loom through the bulkheads where necessary) and put your surge protection, power switch and reservoir caps in the cab close to your 110v inverter - of course you could use a portable Honda generator in the boot (trunk?) but that would require extra sound-proofing. Also, I hope you upgraded your alternator as well as the battery, otherwise you have to recharge the battery every night to keep it topped-up. Following Oliver's advice on vibration I also suggest filling your shock absorbers with concrete, and perhaps your tyres too.
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What?
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20239
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 05:17 |
Dean wrote:
stonebeard wrote:
Analog, obviously. I removed the passenger seat from my car and installed a Denon DP-A100 player with a Yamaha AS2000 stereo. I'm running Monster wire connections and have a surge protector rigged through 4 cigarette lighters in my car. Needless to say, I had to upgrade the car's battery, but that was only $350 more. I had to tear apart the whole passenger quarter of the car to add the proper acoustic treatment to keep the whole thing from vibrating, which Auralex did for only $3,000. Naturally my Saturn's sound system is sh*t, so I have a pair of Sony R10s that I wear at all times while driving.
Really, anything less and you might as well pack it in.
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Why use 4 cigarette lighters? It's just as easy & a lot neater to run 12 gauge wire (+ve and earth) directly from the battery (following the existing wiring loom through the bulkheads where necessary) and put your surge protection, power switch and reservoir caps in the cab close to your 110v inverter - of course you could use a portable Honda generator in the boot (trunk?) but that would require extra sound-proofing. Also, I hope you upgraded your alternator as well as the battery, otherwise you have to recharge the battery every night to keep it topped-up. Following Oliver's advice on vibration I also suggest filling your shock absorbers with concrete, and perhaps your tyres too. |
Gooooood one, Dean!!!!
Dean wrote:
Whether you use co-ax or optical to carry the digital data stream it makes no difference to the sound at all (ever) - in theory the optical TOSLINK connectors are more reliable than the RCA connectors used on the co-ax cable, but in practice I've not know that to cause any problems.
Whether you use the DAC on your CD player and make an analogue connection to the receiver or make a digital connection to the DAC on your Receiver is purely a matter of personal preference to what they sound like. Now-a-days all Sigma-Delta DAC chips sound the same because they essentially are the same, it's the quality of audio filtering/amplifying electronics after the digital conversion that you are listening to, and that is entirely subjective.
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The thing I meant is why go through the trouble of buying digital coax or optical link (unless already provided with the separate elements) if unnecessary...
OK, I'll avoid returning to the RCA-connector/regular cable debate and specific uni-directional audiophile cablings, but that's still the optimal solution to me...
Actually I wonder how many high-end hi-fi amps/receiver indeed have a in-built DAC... AFAIC, this could be blasphemous and prophane to most snobbish audiophiles , let alone uselessly drive the price upwards, because including something already available in your CD deck... 
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 05:45 |
Sean Trane wrote:
Actually I wonder how many high-end hi-fi amps/receiver indeed have a in-built DAC... AFAIC, this could be blasphemous and prophane to most snobbish audiophiles , let alone uselessly drive the price upwards, because including something already available in your CD deck... |
Digital receivers have in-built DACs to decode digital radio - so making the input available for external sources is "free" from the designer/manufacturer point of view and adds another tick-box to the spec sheet.
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What?
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20239
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 05:47 |
Dean wrote:
Sean Trane wrote:
Actually I wonder how many high-end hi-fi amps/receiver indeed have a in-built DAC... AFAIC, this could be blasphemous and prophane to most snobbish audiophiles , let alone uselessly drive the price upwards, because including something already available in your CD deck... |
Digital receivers have in-built DACs to decode digital radio - so making the input available for external sources is "free" from the designer/manufacturer point of view and adds another tick-box to the spec sheet. |
Dooohh!!! 
Of course
How silly of me
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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|
The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 11:43 |
Dean wrote:
Whether you use co-ax or optical to carry the digital data stream it makes no difference to the sound at all (ever) - in theory the optical TOSLINK connectors are more reliable than the RCA connectors used on the co-ax cable, but in practice I've not know that to cause any problems.
Whether you use the DAC on your CD player and make an analogue connection to the receiver or make a digital connection to the DAC on your Receiver is purely a matter of personal preference to what they sound like. Now-a-days all Sigma-Delta DAC chips sound the same because they essentially are the same, it's the quality of audio filtering/amplifying electronics after the digital conversion that you are listening to, and that is entirely subjective.
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As always, Dean is the only one actually answering my question. Thanks. 
And I'm using digital out of the CD5004 because the analog I will be using to connect to the headphone amp. I could connect via analog and the connect the headphone amp to the pre-out in the actual receiver but I've been reading that pre-outs mess with the signal more because it has more interaction with the circuitry vs line-outs (like the one in the cd player) which come out as more "pure".
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 11:47 |
Dean wrote:
The T wrote:
I will be using my analog outs in the cd5004 to connect the headphone amp (which by the way has been doing a tremendous job). |
I assume you bought the V-Can to drive your HD380s - have you tried a comparison between Marantz, Denon & V-Can? |
Yes, I bought it even as we were talking in that other thread (actually, my girlfriend bought it for me so I didn't have much time to think about your suggestion ). I've compared: the denon out has a lot of noise and through the HD650 it sounds horrible. It's like the HD380 was masking the horrible sound or something. The HD650 reveals the debacle. The marantz CD5004 out connected directly to the HD650 gives positive results but the volume is quite low (it has a dedicated mini-knob next to the output). Through the v-can, the results are amazing. These headphones are the best I've ever had (well, obviously). So much more detail, balance, clarity. Amazing. Now I guess with an even better head-amp the results would be even more outstanding but I assume the law of diminishing returs would start to apply... For now until I get somehow wealthier, I'll stay with this setup.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 11:49 |
oliverstoned wrote:
So you bought your dedicated home amp? Did you compared it against the output of your integrated home amp? |
Not really an integrated amp. It's a surround receiver by Marantz so I can also run video through HDMI and all of that, but in my bedroom will act also as my main music amp. The headphones sound so much better through a dedicated headphone amp. I just can't imagine what a really expensive headphone amp could give with these beasts (the HD650s)
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 11:50 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
All this talk about cd players ... pure nostalgia from my point of view. |
When you have more than 2200 cds, and when you don't like collecting music in a hard drive, things are different.
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
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Joined: March 26 2004
Location: France
Status: Offline
Points: 6308
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 12:05 |
The T wrote:
Dean wrote:
The T wrote:
I will be using my analog outs in the cd5004 to connect the headphone amp (which by the way has been doing a tremendous job). |
I assume you bought the V-Can to drive your HD380s - have you tried a comparison between Marantz, Denon & V-Can? |
Yes, I bought it even as we were talking in that other thread (actually, my girlfriend bought it for me so I didn't have much time to think about your suggestion ). I've compared: the denon out has a lot of noise and through the HD650 it sounds horrible. It's like the HD380 was masking the horrible sound or something. The HD650 reveals the debacle. The marantz CD5004 out connected directly to the HD650 gives positive results but the volume is quite low (it has a dedicated mini-knob next to the output). Through the v-can, the results are amazing. These headphones are the best I've ever had (well, obviously). So much more detail, balance, clarity. Amazing. Now I guess with an even better head-amp the results would be even more outstanding but I assume the law of diminishing returs would start to apply... For now until I get somehow wealthier, I'll stay with this setup. |
Let me remind you that in the other thread Dean categorically asserted
that you did not need any dedicated amp as it was another audiophile
fantasy. It proves (if needed) that its brilliant theories don't cope with facts. Well, i let Dean (and progfreak if he wants) all the space, i take some holidays from PA. Bye, and enjoy your headphones.
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The T
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Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 12:09 |
Thanks man. And  . You really have to stick around There's nothing more entertaining that the discussions between you and Dean.
No really the Marantz CD out itself already provides good audio but at lower levels.
And Dean actually DID recommend me a dedicated amp, just one made for higher-impedance cans...
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20239
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 12:16 |
The T wrote:
Dean wrote:
Whether you use co-ax or optical to carry the digital data stream it makes no difference to the sound at all (ever) - in theory the optical TOSLINK connectors are more reliable than the RCA connectors used on the co-ax cable, but in practice I've not know that to cause any problems.
Whether you use the DAC on your CD player and make an analogue connection to the receiver or make a digital connection to the DAC on your Receiver is purely a matter of personal preference to what they sound like. Now-a-days all Sigma-Delta DAC chips sound the same because they essentially are the same, it's the quality of audio filtering/amplifying electronics after the digital conversion that you are listening to, and that is entirely subjective.
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As always, Dean is the only one actually answering my question. Thanks.
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Hey!!! 
Next time, don't open a thread, just PM him, then!!!! 
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
|
|
The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
|
Posted: June 17 2011 at 12:17 |
stonebeard wrote:
Analog, obviously. I removed the passenger seat from my car and installed a Denon DP-A100 player with a Yamaha AS2000 stereo. I'm running Monster wire connections and have a surge protector rigged through 4 cigarette lighters in my car. Needless to say, I had to upgrade the car's battery, but that was only $350 more. I had to tear apart the whole passenger quarter of the car to add the proper acoustic treatment to keep the whole thing from vibrating, which Auralex did for only $3,000. Naturally my Saturn's sound system is sh*t, so I have a pair of Sony R10s that I wear at all times while driving.
Really, anything less and you might as well pack it in.
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This answer has so little to do with my original question  yet it's still somewhat interesting
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: June 17 2011 at 12:18 |
Sean Trane wrote:
The T wrote:
Dean wrote:
Whether you use co-ax or optical to carry the digital data stream it makes no difference to the sound at all (ever) - in theory the optical TOSLINK connectors are more reliable than the RCA connectors used on the co-ax cable, but in practice I've not know that to cause any problems.
Whether you use the DAC on your CD player and make an analogue connection to the receiver or make a digital connection to the DAC on your Receiver is purely a matter of personal preference to what they sound like. Now-a-days all Sigma-Delta DAC chips sound the same because they essentially are the same, it's the quality of audio filtering/amplifying electronics after the digital conversion that you are listening to, and that is entirely subjective.
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As always, Dean is the only one actually answering my question. Thanks.
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Hey!!!
Next time, don't open a thread, just PM him, then!!!!
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Your reply was all around Mr.
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Digital coaxial vs optical
