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rogerthat 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
 Posted: March 01 2011 at 21:10 |
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I would say we are already at that point through the addition of you-know-which-bands. |
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Daggor
Forum Newbie 
Joined: February 26 2011 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 12 |
Posted: March 12 2011 at 13:04 |
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It's true that 18 doesn't always equal prog, but listening to that song, I hear more prog elements than power elements.
Before Polaris/Elysium, I agreed with the original ruling that Stratovarius wasn't prog, as it only constituted an early part of their career and one album at the end (The self titled). Given the increasingly strong prog elements recently however, and the fact that 7 of their 13 albums either contain strong prog elements or are prog altogether, I'd say there's need of a recount. There are three other strong examples of the band's recent direction. Deep Unknown is on the power/prog border more than the other two, but the composition, and especially the solos are far more complex and intricate than any power metal I've heard recently.
Edited by Daggor - March 12 2011 at 13:07 |
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: May 23 2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 492 |
Posted: June 13 2011 at 06:02 |
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I didn't see this set of posts when it was entertained in Feb / March but I have to tell you Daggor that it is a battle that you cannot win.
When I first started with my love of music there was no such term as "prog" relating to music. All the music that I loved was placed in a category called "underground" and I remember listening through headphones to and old valve radio to a radio station called "radio Nederlands" on Sunday nights where for two hours they put me into music bliss by playing "underground" music. I was around 14 years old at the time and I had discovered the magical thing that is prog music. I watched (or rather listened) as prog was born.
I am in agreement with most of what happens here on prog archives and I have found it to be a wonderful resource relating to the kind of music that I love. I've only been a member for a few years but I watched the site grow from inception and I have immense respect for many of the reviewers and the admin here relating to their knowlege of music.
I entered the Stratovarius fray around two years ago and I must say that I found the experience to be a painful one and in many ways a humiliating one as I was severely attacked over my insistance that Strat is a prog band irrespective of the feelings of some people here.
I watched prog music form and grow, I have a music collection that if I began to play it back to back today I would be dead before the last track played. I personally know a few "prog" artists on a friendly basis - all meaning only that I do feel that I have some idea what I'm on about relating to music.
For anyone to state that Stratovarius is not progressive relating to music is for them to state that they either haven't heard much of Strats music, that they do have a dislike for progressive symphonic (or power) metal, or that they have some other bias relating to Stratovarius.
Anyway - nuff said - I do not want to be placed in the same situation as I was once in here as I walked away from that not wanting to ever come back, such was the level of the attack on me relating to my simple belief that Strat should be given a place here.
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: June 13 2011 at 09:37 |
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I've said it a number of times, but I have always supported this band's admission.
I think though they were given very fair consideration for inclusion, the matter eventually ending up with the site owner. That's quite unusual, most decisions are taken without the need to involve M@x.
Given all this, I think we have to accept that they have been fully considered and move on.
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Chris S
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 09 2004 Location: Front Range Status: Offline Points: 7028 |
Posted: June 13 2011 at 10:00 |
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Part of the sites evolution.....all things will pass
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...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
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sukmytoe
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2013 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 291 |
Posted: March 27 2013 at 17:36 |
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"Stratovarius has become one of the most respected Progressive-Metal or Power-Metal bands in Europe. Their recent Elements Pt.1 has some of the richest sounds in today's Metal, and Elements Pt.2 is due for release in early November. Senior Sea Of Tranquility writer Duncan Glenday recently held a conversation with Stratovarius's keyboard wizard Jens Johansson, who has also worked with Yngwie Malmsteen, Dio, Arjen Anthony Lucassen, and Mastermind. We asked Jens about his background, Stratovarius's creative process, and the new album"
Quoted from the Sea of Tranquility website.
"One of the best prog. metal albums I have heard - 85%"quote from the Metal Archives website relating to Stratovarius's Infinite album. I could probably find a 100 references in ten minutes to Stratovarius being regarded as prog if I sifted the net. How is it that the feeling here is that Strat aren't prog when the almost universal feeling elsewhere is that they are? I've heard the arguments here over time and those arguments hold no weight with me whatsoever. The members of PA must have a large percentage of believers in my argument that Stratovarius should be represented here. Kamelot are more proggy than Strat? Where does that thinking come from?
I could post plenty of links to youtube of Stratovarius showing the ingrediants that we here say make up prog music but the exercise would be pointless as all it takes is a serious listen to their music and albums. I dare anyone to tell me that the track Destiny is not prog music because if I hear that I'm going to question the person who states that regarding his feeling for what prog music is. Destiny is by far not the only example in their discography that I could point to but it is an example.
My feeling is that new folk joining this site may never get to hear or know Stratovarius as they are highly influenced by this (very good in most ways) website which is an absolute shame as Strat's music is both stunning and very uplifting aside from fully falling into the prog category of metal music. I get that those who love Opeth wouldn't go for Strat - they are very different sides of the musical coin - Strat being uplifting and as melodic as all hell.
Sorry to those that my attempt to revive this subject may upset
 but this thing is something that I will not give up on. |
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66588 |
Posted: March 27 2013 at 17:50 |
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Are you DavetheSlave reincarnated?
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aapatsos
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 11 2005 Location: Manchester, UK Status: Offline Points: 9226 |
Posted: March 27 2013 at 17:54 |
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No single member of the past prog metal teams has given a positive vote for their inclusion, I hope this explains some things
http://progfreak.com/Stratovarius-52034.html?path=pa/pm Yes, they can play some good neo-classical power metal at times, some slow melodic power metal with great keyboards at times but they are not a progressive metal band |
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sukmytoe
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2013 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 291 |
Posted: March 27 2013 at 18:00 |
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As I recall DavetheSlave got quite heated about the subject although he didn't articulate his reasons for wanting Stratovarius here well enough. I know him personally but no, I'm not him. What's your take on the Strat subject? |
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66588 |
Posted: March 27 2013 at 18:11 |
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This is my take on it.
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sukmytoe
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2013 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 291 |
Posted: March 27 2013 at 18:15 |
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Hey aapatsos - I'm afraid that many outside of PA don't quite agree with that but everone has his or her own definition of what prog is. Strat include in their music all of the elements that our own recipe here for prog music contains. Those same people who voted anti Stratovarius voted yes to Kamelot? How did that happen? I enjoy Kamelot but the two bands are chalk and cheese when it comes down to prog elements in their music. I'm not one of those comparison guys who says that one is here how come not the other but relating to Strat there are many inclusions that may cause some to raise eyebrows when looking at Stratovarius and not just the Kamelot thing.
How many people have sat and analysed the above track properly - and that is one example.
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sukmytoe
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2013 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 291 |
Posted: March 27 2013 at 18:27 |
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rushfan4 - I know that DavetheSlave had the deepest respect for you as he felt that you were one of the only members here not to take him to task regarding his request for Stratovarius's inclusion. I believe that things kind of got out of hand where he suggested that there was some other agenda relating to Strat's non inclusion but that was because he felt a complete non understanding relating to the argument and the direction that the whole thing went in. He felt stonewalled is how he put it to me.
My only question would be how intimately did those who voted against Strat look at their music and did they sit back and really listen. I note a strong metal movement here for the other side of the Strat coin being the really heavy tech metal / Death Metal scene and to those people who appreciate that Strat would be a red flag because that isn't what they do at all. The beat / tempo change thing in Strat's music, the different direction that many of the tracks take, the journey that those tracks take the listener on, the heavy use of keyboards - all those things as to our own recipe to what prog is are inherent in the music and that can't be denied.
How many tempo changes can you count here? This track on its own blows any arguments totally out of the water - how about I post links to another ten or so tracks to seal my side of the story?
What happen's at the point around 5.25 into the track? This isn't regarded by the powers that be here to be proggy?
Edited by sukmytoe - March 27 2013 at 18:54 |
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66588 |
Posted: March 27 2013 at 19:04 |
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I can't speak for the prog metal team members so I don't know what each individual member considers when choosing to accept or exclude a band, but I respect that they were selected for the prog metal team based on their interest and knowledge of prog metal, and the site has entrusted them with the decision to accept or exclude the bands that they evaluate. That doesn't mean that I agree with every decision that they make, but it does mean that I respect their conclusions as being representative of their team and the site. Strat may meet my definition of progressive power metal, but for whatever their reasoning over the years Strat haven't met the various prog metal team members definition. They have been kind enough to evaluate them multiple times with different team members and have still reached that same conclusion.
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sukmytoe
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2013 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 291 |
Posted: March 27 2013 at 19:26 |
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Rushfan4, since that time there have been a further 3 album releases by Strat so the argument that I see relating to the Easy Livin post relating to the fact that they have been considered and won't be included carries little weight with me. It in fact says what it says and that leads me to presume that the argument will always remain closed irrelevantly of what anyone now happens to say. By the very definition that I read on this site as to what prog music is I have a lack of understanding relating to what the real problem is when it comes down to Stratovarius. Hell, on the Elements track I pick up a flute aside from the various tempo changes and direction changes in the track itself.
I accept that some may percieve that Death Metal has prog elements, all I'm saying is that the non inclusion of what is obviously prog music by PA's own definition of what is on the other side of the prog metal spectrum is really not, to my mind, fair. My argument is not with you my friend, it is with the powers that be who I believe didn't make a wrong decision but maybe should review that decision properly.
I feel that the Strat argument has become, over time, a sticking point and it isn't only DavetheSlave who brought it up - prior to him there were the same arguments over time and after him others attempted to revive it with no joy. Looking back at all the Strat posts I do percieve a kind of stonewalling for whatever reason relating to the topic.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66588 |
Posted: March 27 2013 at 19:59 |
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I have not heard their most recent albums, but would hope that members of the prog metal team have. I don't know on that. Unfortunately at this point, the addition of Strat falls under being a controversial band and it would take a unanimous vote by the members of the prog metal team to get them in. I suspect that unless it is so progressive that it makes Dream Theater blush that they won't unanimously change their minds.
We are usually told that a band can be re-evaluated if they release a new album after being rejected, so I guess I would hope that someone on that team would at least give the new album a listen to determine whether it is progressive enough in their minds to warrant another reconsideration on the band. That is really about it though.
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Earendil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 17 2008 Location: Indiana, USA Status: Offline Points: 1584 |
Posted: March 27 2013 at 20:35 |
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I've always thought they were one of the least progressive major power metal bands
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sukmytoe
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2013 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 291 |
Posted: March 28 2013 at 01:47 |
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Earendil - if that were the case then it would open a whole new can of worms - being that there is an exclusion of a whole prog side to metal that certain entities here don't accept whereas they accept the opposite side to the Strat kind of music which again when listening to Strat they fullfill all of the laid down prog attributes posted on this very site for determining what is prog. Personally I have many "power metal" bands in my collection and they don't strike me as being progressive in terms of what I would like to see here represented on PA. It is too easy to listen to a lot of Strats material and dismiss them however a large percentage of their music is (whether you or I or anyone else likes it) prog music. Some of the more profound musical journeys that I have been taken on in my mind listening to music with my eyes closed have been driven on the Stratovarius bus). Certainly they have a lot of tracks that are pure power metal cheese however there is that large percentage of their tracks that fit, like a glove, prog metal. This is not coming from a Stratovarius fanboy by the way as I am a fanboy of a whole lot of prog music ranging from different genres within the prog sphere. I have and love the new Steven Wilson album, the new Comedy of Errors album and many many others from through the early 70's to date - so I'm not vectoring from the Strat fanboy arena - I'm a fanboy of prog music full stop. This is an easy connect the dots exercise to indulge in - look at what we ourselves here state is the recipe for prog music and then spool up just about any Stratovarius album and ignore the cheese tracks while listening to the prog tracks - and then make a judgement call. I could fill this page with examples of why Strat are prog but that would be an exercise that I don't really want to indulge in. I do sense a biase for the darker side of prog metal on this site and I personally do not like the darker side of prog metal (the growling type of sonic noise metal) however I would never say that that side of the spectrum isn't prog - why is the opposite being said to me then? It's easy to spool up the Stratovarius album of the same name and listen to the first three tracks and dismiss Strat as a prog metal band however then comes the monster track Back to Madness which kind of says whoa hold on there mate. The Stratovarius album of the same name is a bad example as looking at that whole album I personally would dismiss my own argument however there are many albums before and after that one that exude prog in spades. Edited by sukmytoe - March 28 2013 at 02:06 |
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aapatsos
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 11 2005 Location: Manchester, UK Status: Offline Points: 9226 |
Posted: March 29 2013 at 07:24 |
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I will have another listen to the samples you provided above at some point
Another question to ask: how many PROG sites include Stratovarius?
I can see your point about Kamelot, not all their releases are representative of progressive metal but their beginnings were, so maybe that is another reason why thery are include here (I cannot speak for the team at the time, I just assume)
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
Posted: March 29 2013 at 08:23 |
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I honestly don't hear it. Keyboards infused in metal don't necessarily equate prog.
This sounds like power metal to me - not in the vicinity of prog imho. Sorry but that's how I feel - and I've listened to all of the samples given in this thread.
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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sukmytoe
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 18 2013 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 291 |
Posted: March 29 2013 at 16:01 |
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For me it is simple - what music takes me on a journey? Pop music doesn't, standard rock or metal doesn't. Strat does, often. Off centre or uncommon rythm structures, rythm tempo changes, compositional direction changes, the full on keyboard usage, the ability of the musicians with their instruments - those things by our own very defintion of prog on this site are flags to what is and what is not prog music and those things are very apparant in Strat's music. I have always included Strat in my own personal prog music section as opposed to putting them in metal, rock or pop because of the musical journey thing. I could easily listen to a number of their standard tracks and write them off as a pure power metal band however there are the tracks that say very much otherwise for example those on the Elements albums and a number of their other tracks e.g Destiny. I'm not necessarily pushing for them to be included under the prog metal but I would like to see them represented here if only to allow many people here to make up their own minds. We do know that this is a controversial subject - the Strat one - and the only reason for that controversy is that the argument exists and holds water. If someone had to put them under prog related I wouldn't cry about that - I purely believe that they should have a showing on PA.
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Reconsidering Stratovarius
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CCVP wrote: